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  1. #11
    IntenseFajita
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    I'm still not sure how we would go about enforcing this. Anybody can shoot at anybody and claim that they thought the target was a traitor. We can't read people's minds; what if they saw something we didn't see? How do we warn a player to stop missing their target? Are bullet decals going to be proof of T baiting?

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  3. #12
    fantastic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turtlefiish View Post
    Maybe not more difficult, but definitely more annoying and stressful. You're going to be inviting a thousand people to scream at admins about T-baiting they didn't see and can't do anything about like they already do with rdm'ing (which was already a big ole pain in the ass to deal with, at least for me), and that's assuming the baiting is genuine and not someone completely oblivious to what's going on and just shouting for the hell of it.

    Also, the "removal of T baiting" is a weird way of phrasing it.
    If the only argument to be made is that the addition/removal of an existing rule will impact an admin's ability to admin the server it doesn't seem like enough to entirely discredit the idea of banning T baiting. Several rule additions or removals made in the past have added weight and responsibility to TTT admins - detective orders, banning killing off association (since removed), etc. All of these additions and removals were made because the intent behind the change was viewed to be greater than the impact to admining the server. For me, I view the addition to admin responsibilities to not be big enough to discredit the idea, and I believe banning T baiting would help the server and increase players' enjoyment of the gamemode.

    Admins deal with what they want to deal with. There's an age-old mantra that has been floating around: "admins are not investigators". If T baiting between players is something that the admin didn't see, they are not under any obligation to stop whatever they're doing and spectate. It would be nice, but it's not expected that every time a player reports something the admin must respond. I think you're overexaggerating the impact to the admining experience that this change would bring TBH.

  4. #13
    Lokibelowkey
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    just don't, you're just going to ruin the server.


    This is a bad idea with the already pre-established game style, making it harder to enforce, and overall making the game worse. By adding this rule you will most likely hurt the server rather than help and I feel that you’re ideas are misguided.

    TTT in most maps have the I/D with the advantage with some exceptions like maps and how good players are. For anyone who isn’t good at the game mode having this rule change would make it harder for them to play the game. The way it is works because you can kill people in a lot of situations and get away with it because of how commonplace it is to hear gunshots. It is also very useful to bait people into KOSing themselves if you are 98% they’re a T without that last 2% of evidence to be in accordance with the rules. It may be used in a mischievous way by some but it is a useful tool for most

    This makes our server different from others if people really didn’t like the t-baiting rule on our servers when they first come to the server they would leave. People like the rule and while that isn’t 100% true or a huge argument to be made, it is still true none the less. This would definitely have a shellshock through the player base and would most likely worsen the overall experience for our regs. You saw how quickly people were up in arms after the karma change and number system, not a core gameplay change, if this were come to pass I am confident that it wouldn’t go well and for no point as it is a good rule.

    How would you enforce this? Because how close to someone is to close and is considered t-baiting, how would the admin know if they t-baited unless they directly saw it because the logs don’t show t baits or just any gunshot. Most t-baiting happens before admins die so in most situations they wouldn’t be able to even enforce if the rule was passed not including the confusion of having to enforce. At some point how do you know that they think one guy is a T and is trying to shoot him but is just missing it makes the rule that is simple “T-Baiting is allowed but KOS” to this really complicated mess of a rule.

    I think the racism rule can be compared to this as drawing a line in the sand at which is allowed and which isn’t become really hard and hurts more than helps, either allow t-baiting or no shooting unless you are a t or shooting at a t. Because unless it is as cut and dry as none at all of yes to all we are unnecessarily complicating something that already works and making admins jobs harder on and already chaotic server.

    Overall I feel that this is a bad idea for everyone, the admins and players would not like the change and would make the server worse. This shouldn’t be implemented and left where it is at. It is changes like these that can easily make people want to stop playing a game/server change the core gameplay. The game the culling died because every other week the changes the core gameplay whilst that is an extreme it is telling that we should be cautious what we change about the server.

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  6. #14
    Turtlefiish
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    Quote Originally Posted by fantastic View Post
    Admins deal with what they want to deal with.
    Which is why this'll be problematic. It's going to set up an expectation that admins will deal with it, when it's so difficult to deal with properly that most won't which'll make the server environment that bit more toxic. It's why I mentioned screaming players because this rule will just cause more bans for spamming and admin disrespect than anything else.

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  8. #15
    fantastic
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntenseFajita View Post
    I'm still not sure how we would go about enforcing this. Anybody can shoot at anybody and claim that they thought the target was a traitor. We can't read people's minds; what if they saw something we didn't see? How do we warn a player to stop missing their target? Are bullet decals going to be proof of T baiting?
    I think this was an aspect of the change that I didn't make too clear and just internalized... sorry about that. T baiting would still be allowed from traitors - that is, they can miss their shots on an innocent and not be impacted seeing as it's just whiffing shots. But T baiting between innocents and others (aka shooting without evidence or clear provocation) would be disallowed. If the innocent saw something we didn't see then we procede like we do if an RDM occurred - ignore it and try to spectate to see if the player is continuously breaking the rules.

    If an innocent misses their target then that's not T baiting, that's them missing their target. Changing this rule doesn't mean we have to nitpick every single instance... admins should only act if they are sure, as it's always been. If a player is missing their shots on a target but had valid reason to believe that player is a T, that's not T baiting... that's them missing shots on their target. T baiting (traitor baiting) is an innocent or traitor trying to make the other person believe they are a traitor. An innocent shooting at a known traitor and missing their shots will have a hard time making that traitor believe they are a traitor as well. An innocent (let's call them innocent A) should never need to shoot at another innocent (innocent B) with this rule change unless the innocent B did something that was traitorous. Then, innocent A would be fully within their rights to kill innocent B. Missing their shots is missing their shots, not T baiting. If I missed my shots on a traitor right now in-game with our current ruleset it wouldn't be called traitor baiting, it'd be missing my shots. This same logic wouldn't change with the removal of T baiting.

  9. #16
    Gentoo
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    I'm going to assume we won't be slaying people for running over unIDed bodies, so by T-Baiting, we're really talking about shooting at other players, unprovoked, as an innocent.

    There's a few advantages that could come from this, and a few arguments against banning t-baiting, but thinking about it conceptually is the best way to go about it in my opinion.

    In short, the goal of this is to PANDER to newer players who don't understand the gamemode by boiling it down into a SIMPLER way to play. I don't feel that this is by any means necessary. TTT does not have a very steep learning curve, as evident by the new players we see on our server every day. TTT does, however, leave a lot of room for people with experience to shine and excel. Ultimately, what you are trying to do is lower a learning curve that doesn't need moved, catering. In return, you are hindering and limiting the ways that regulars and experienced players play by UNDERMINING what past and present management has worked so hard for.

    Management has made it clear that they would like to push the server further from DM and closer to a skill based, quick-thinking gamemode. Removing T-Baiting, in short, means that Innocents will not have a way to test their intuitions, and the game will be reduced to testing whoever has the fastest reactions and best aim to kill whoever is shooting at them. After all, the only people allowed to shoot at innocents unprovoked is Ts, right?

    You'll often hear newer players cite their reason for RDMing someone as "I knew they were a T". They are punished for this, not because they were wrong, but because it is against the rules. Often times, players (especially those with experience) ARE able to correctly identify Ts without any solid evidence. T-baiting allows them to test their intuitions, accepting the risk that the person may not shoot back, they may be shooting at an innocent, or they may be killed by an innocent.

    Ultimately, I don't want to play a watered down version of the game, and I'm sure your server population will reflect that should the rule change. One of the things that attracts players is just how free they are to play the gamemode on our server. If you DO intend to water down the game-mode to lower the learning curve for newer players, I highly suggest looking into other options first, instead of banning t-baiting.

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  11. #17
    fantastic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
    I'm going to assume we won't be slaying people for running over unIDed bodies, so by T-Baiting, we're really talking about shooting at other players, unprovoked, as an innocent.

    There's a few advantages that could come from this, and a few arguments against banning t-baiting, but thinking about it conceptually is the best way to go about it in my opinion.

    In short, the goal of this is to PANDER to newer players who don't understand the gamemode by boiling it down into a SIMPLER way to play. I don't feel that this is by any means necessary. TTT does not have a very steep learning curve, as evident by the new players we see on our server every day. TTT does, however, leave a lot of room for people with experience to shine and excel. Ultimately, what you are trying to do is lower a learning curve that doesn't need moved, catering. In return, you are hindering and limiting the ways that regulars and experienced players play by UNDERMINING what past and present management has worked so hard for.

    Management has made it clear that they would like to push the server further from DM and closer to a skill based, quick-thinking gamemode. Removing T-Baiting, in short, means that Innocents will not have a way to test their intuitions, and the game will be reduced to testing whoever has the fastest reactions and best aim to kill whoever is shooting at them. After all, the only people allowed to shoot at innocents unprovoked is Ts, right?

    You'll often hear newer players cite their reason for RDMing someone as "I knew they were a T". They are punished for this, not because they were wrong, but because it is against the rules. Often times, players (especially those with experience) ARE able to correctly identify Ts without any solid evidence. T-baiting allows them to test their intuitions, accepting the risk that the person may not shoot back, they may be shooting at an innocent, or they may be killed by an innocent.

    Ultimately, I don't want to play a watered down version of the game, and I'm sure your server population will reflect that should the rule change. One of the things that attracts players is just how free they are to play the gamemode on our server. If you DO intend to water down the game-mode to lower the learning curve for newer players, I highly suggest looking into other options first, instead of banning t-baiting.
    I appreciate the detailed argument you made here, and I understand what you're saying. But the role of testing a players' intuitions of whether a player is a T should lie with the detective... that's why they have items like the taser and DNA. An innocent should only be able to kill if they're absolutely certain someone is a T, whether that's staying in close proximity to other players and watching to see who's killing who or watching to see if other players are running by bodies that haven't been id'd. If an innocent needs to be testing their own intuitions and can't rely on the detective, that indicates the detective needs to be buffed, not that innocents should be pseudo-detectives.

  12. #18
    IntenseFajita
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    Let me clarify: what I'm saying is that anybody can claim to just be missing their shots - a lot. How do we punish such a player? Is the player T baiting, or just bad at the game? We don't know. Do we really want admins to watch over this player just because they miss their target more often than not? Their infraction is that they briefly scare other players, meanwhile we have people RDMing, hacking, spamming, etc.

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  14. #19
    Dom
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    I don't think this is a good idea. t baiting has been a part of ttt for the entire time I've played it and ive never seen a problem with it. I haven't seen anyone really complain about t baiting, its usually people doing it to fuck with their friends. if t baiting becomes a bannable offense then I see it being difficult for admins to control. as stated by @IntenseFajita we cant read peoples minds, everyone sees things differently. im sure we all know the hell jb can become when people start complaining about being freeshot or crossfired and all that fun stuff. I'm sure all the admins love being spammed with messages and told to do something over voice coms, I see something similar happening if t baiting gets banned with it being increasingly difficult because unless an admin is spectating the players they most likely won't have enough evidence to slay/ban a player or whatever you guys decide the procedure will be. the only reason I can see t baiting being removed is for new players but even then its not that big of a deal and they can pick up on it eventually. if I can learn the rules anyone can

  15. #20
    fantastic
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntenseFajita View Post
    Let me clarify: what I'm saying is that anybody can claim to just be missing their shots - a lot. How do we punish such a player? Is the player T baiting, or just bad at the game? We don't know. Do we really want admins to watch over this player just because they miss their target more often than not? Their infraction is that they briefly scare other players, meanwhile we have people RDMing, hacking, spamming, etc.
    So we have a few situations where a player can be T baiting. The one which has caused the most trouble and the one I'm referencing right now is innocent A shooting another player (innocent B) unprovoked. Let's say T baiting is banned. Innocent A is shooting at innocent B and is T baiting, but his excuse is that he's "missing his shots" like you said. For him to even be shooting (regardless of whether he is missing his shots or hitting his shots) he must have evidence that innocent B is a traitor. If he does have evidence and is missing his shots then that's perfectly fine, that isn't T baiting since innocent A wouldn't be trying to convince the traitor that he is a traitor as well. That's him missing his shots. If innocent A does not have evidence that innocent B is a traitor, regardless of whether or not his shots are missing or hitting, that would be against the rules. I don't see any grey areas here... please let me know if there are any that I didn't consider .

    The infraction is more than briefly scaring other players - it's the other 50% of the time where the innocent is baiting a new-ish player and ends up causing a huge amount of chaos and RDMs. While I understand that RDMing, hacking, and spamming absolutely take precedence, the admins would understand that too and would let T baiting slide while those infractions are taken care of. For example, if I saw someone knifing AFKs while a spinbotter was on TTT, I would go handle the spinbotter first. Does that mean knifing AFKs is allowed or encouraged? No... that just means spinbotting takes priority of an admin's attention. Same logic applies here - just because it's not urgent or important doesn't mean it should be allowed.

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