[Answered] Abstains Need to be Fixed

Every now and then I look at the admin apps and laugh at the reasoning some people give in order to abstain or get their post count up. I don't necessarily think that abstains should be removed but they should offer more critical thinking than just saying "I don't know you, abstain". Abstaining should be a little more frowned upon and be replaced with just general opinions instead of abstaining. Abstaining seems more negative than neutral and it might as well be a reapply. I've heard some people say that they vote to abstain instead of voting to reapply because it's less harsh. Abstaining means that you don't have anything to add, but people still have something to say. Instead, you should just not say it and just give your opinion. If you have anything to add on to this, please do so.

Here are some examples of ridiculous "abstains" that I have seen with the names left out :

I don't know you all to well, but the times I have been in a game with you a haven't seen you as a stand out at all, I can't even distinguish a single time I've seen or heard you, but I know I have.

So keep up the good work.

When I was active he was always on jail break having fun, helping catch rules breakers, and helping new players learn the different game modes. He obviously knows the rules and I have know doubt he will do a great job enforcing them but due to my activity i am going to have to Abstain goodluck.

I've noticed him regularly on TTT, but can't recall his presence on the server or anything noteworthy about him or his behavior. While I haven't ever noticed him breaking rules or in conflict with players, I have to say, it's hard to remember anything he's done, even with how often he plays. I will Abstain. Best of luck, wish I had more to say, but there's not a lot there

Ive seen you on TTT before, and you dont really break the rules ever, and Ive never had a problem with you on the servers. The problem is that youve never really stuck out to me in game other than being somebody that i recognize when I come on... Other than these few things, you seem like a nice and caring person and Id have no problem with you being an admin. Abstain

I've never really seen you on the forums before but for now I think I am going to give you an abstain, but the best of luck. Also for a tip include what you might do if you got admin and how you could improve something or help.

Abstain. I've talked with you couple of times and you sound like a nice guy, mature, and knows how to handle things well. My interaction time with you has been very little though which is why i'm giving you an abstain. Try joining other servers more often like TTT and posting more complaints and such to let people know you try to handle rule breakers.

I'm abstaining for not knowing you. Now I know that Abstaining technically doesn't count one way or another, but it's not a good look when all you have are abstains thus far.

I may have seen you a few times, but being that I play TTT nearly every evening, I certainly don't see you often. I think it's best that I abstain. If you are given a re-apply, I suggest that you spend more time on TTT.

Abstain. Don't really know you too well, but you seem nice and respected. Good luck!

Just to start I'll let you know I'm going to Abstain. In your application you wrote your favorite servers are JB, TTT, and MG. I've seen you on JB before but I only recently started playing it more so I don't know you very well. However I do have a lot of time on TTT since I joined this server and I can't think of 1 time I have seen you on there so that just confuses me as to why you put it as one of your favorite servers. If you look at your sessions they are very inconsistent and you are there from 1 minute to almost an hour. Now considering I don't remember ever seeing you I have no idea if you know the rules at all or if you would be able to enforce them on TTT and if you would ever be on that server in the first place

Much like he said, I wasn't aware in the slightest that you were interested in admin, which makes this feel like person's admin app so I'll give you the same verdict I first gave his; going to abstain this time around and come to my own conclusions

I'm going to abstain as although I have been absent I have only seen you about once or twice. The memories were positive memories, and you are a good person. I cannot properly judge your character with my experiences of you, it seems like you left the game for a little bit, and didn't play on the servers as frequently and now you're coming back, I'd love to vote support if I continued to see you on the servers and teamspeak, although I cannot speak for the last about 3 weeks, so sorry if my abstain is inaccurate.

I'm going to abstain as I haven't played with you much at all (even on TTT, your fav/only server.)

Ive only really ever seen him on the ZE server probably just due to timing when we got on at different times. However, he is a rule-abiding player who tends to spend a good few hours on the servers everyday from what Ive seen. The fact that he branches out to all the server shows that he is knowledgeable of all of the rules and would probably be able to catch any players breaking these rules. He is a generally nice guy and I would not see any problems in giving him admin, however due to my lack of knowing the applicant too well or really paying attention to his behavior on the servers (though its usually calm), I will have to ABSTAIN. Good luck, guy.

Now I understand that some people are going to say, "But John, those are some actual responses. What's wrong with those?" Most of these start off with the person saying they know them, they're a good person, etc., and then it ends in them saying that they abstain. What is the point in doing that? Some of these are people just outright abstaining because they never see the person or they don't know them. It just leaves a negative vibe on the app. Abstains should not leave a negative vibe. Why don't you just vote reapply or at least expand on why you decided to abstain? I feel as if people have no idea what abstain means and they're just tossing it around because they don't want to vote reapply. Abstaining prevents someone from expanding on their thoughts.

Hey the first one is me.

Abstain simply means your vote shouldn't count, but you would like to input some information at the person.

I put my example there as a reminder that the person which I was talking about was not a stand out type of person, but I plan on changing that soon because I have met them recently, and they knew rules, etc.

I would personally rather someone vote abstain with the "i've never seen you" reasoning than re-apply. How can you make a decision on someone you've never interacted with before?

With that being said, the BD team collectively comes to a decision based off of personal experience and pertinent posts in the admin application thread itself. If you have something to say about any applicant we encourage you to do so, but, that does not mean we judge all votes the same.

I actually completely agree - but tbh whatever the outcome of this is, just know that we don't actually take dumb shit into account when we read apps...it just doesn't always get deleted unfortunately by the time it reaches us.

I honestly have no problem with completely removing abstains though, tbh - 'abstain' wasn't really a thing in old admin applications from what I remember, so I'm not really sure where (within the last 5 years?) it became a thing.

I agree that it abstain is mostly useless. I still however think it can be even important thing to have. It is kinda of special case yes/no.

Example:

Old admin from years ago comes back and applies for admin. Years ago I talked to them and played with them, would easily give them a yes. Years have however passed and we haven't talked/played together at all. I might use abstain to mention that I would have said yes years ago but because of no contact in years I'm not confident to say yes.

Same would apply if this person was a bully years ago but maybe not anymore.

I agree that it abstain is mostly useless. I still however think it can be even important thing to have. It is kinda of special case yes/no.

 

Example:

Old admin from years ago comes back and applies for admin. Years ago I talked to them and played with them, would easily give them a yes. Years have however passed and we haven't talked/played together at all. I might use abstain to mention that I would have said yes years ago but because of no contact in years I'm not confident to say yes.

 

Same would apply if this person was a bully years ago but maybe not anymore.

This is essentially what ABSTAIN should be used for. The problem stems from when people say stuff like "Ive never seen you before, ABSTAIN" As it states in the GUIDE, you shouldnt be saying anything about someone if youve never met them. Really ABSTAIN is meant for the stuff you mentioned, little tid bits that you feel offer some weight to one side but you dont feel comfortable supporting them at that point, or you dont have enough reason to. Everyone just needs to stop the whole, you dont play on my server stuff and focus on the more important things like personality, activity, and their motives rather than what server they play on.

Some of those I completely agree with you, others make sense as they add something which can be compared to others for continuity's sake. In some instances an argument can be made for people who are abstaining due to "not standing out", "not admin material", "nothing noteworthy" as 6-15 people abstaining sometimes can really mean the person has other underlying issues that can be seen through reading the application, looking at stats, past history etc... With all that being said I think that useless Abstains with no content to them should be removed, as any other vote would be dealt with. Votes such as "Abstain. Don't really know you too well, but you seem nice and respected. Good luck!" have no place in an Admin Application, and letting them stick around encourages more idiots to post shit just like it for various dogshit reasons. Removing abstains sounds pretty counter-logic, encouraging people to actually enforce what is already in the Guide probably better in the long run.

The old admin applications (during the time when admins can only make decisions as to who became admin) had a poll, which I think is something that we ought to bring back, whilst still requiring those that do vote on the application to post under it with their reasoning - otherwise, their vote is invalidated.

The aforementioned is beside the point. With regards to the votes themselves, there were only three possible choices: Support / Reapply / Reject. I think the problem has arisen in the fact that the definition of Reapply has somewhat transformed - becoming more of a reject than it is meant to be. As such, abstaining has provided the means to be the replacement for such a vote, which basically says that "I have some formulated opinion on you, but regardless, I feel indifferent about whether or not you, the applicant, get approved for admin." This becomes even worse when individuals use their abstain vote whilst claiming that they do not see the applicant actively playing on the server. That's just simply ridiculous! Because with that sort of vote, an individual either intentionally or unintentionally throws shade towards the applicant, maliciously questioning their qualifications to become an admin. If you're dumb enough to cast such a vote whilst many others claim that the applicant is perfectly fit to attain an administrator position, any individual can use such a post against you if you ever decide to apply - because in reality, if you hardly see the applicant, is it their fault or is it really yours? (How to Get Away with Murder made me use this tone - really great show)

So yes, I do find that the abstain vote is as ridiculous as it coms. As such, what would be the best manner to deviate away from this tendency? Implement the system of having a poll associated with every application, only difference being that you'd have four votes to choose from: Support / Abstain leaning towards Support / Abstain leaning towards Reject / Reject. This reflects the entire spectrum of emotions that you'd have with regards to an applicant. Any prejudices or types of emotions that you've conjured up for an applicant will land somewhere along those four choices. And if you've haven't played on the servers for the past two weeks? Don't vote.

What I like about abstaining is you are able to give the person applying for admin advice and reasons why you won't vote so they can fix any issues going forward, but your vote doesn't necessarily hurt them either.

A lot of the time the advice given is to play the other servers and get their name out there a little more.

If you aren't providing a concrete vote, you're still doing the next best thing and offering that person your own feedback on what you like about them applying or what they can work on. A simple "abstaining because I don't see you around" can be just as valuable to the applicant as a yes or no vote.

Just my opinion on the matter though.

crazy idea but if you dont know the person then dont vote abstain. just dont vote at all