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View Full Version : Brits, are you serious?



Zero001
04-11-2008, 01:37 AM
Met Police officers to be 'microchipped' by top brass in Big Brother style tracking scheme
Link (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=558597&in_page_id=1770)

Why does the British government thinks this is a good idea? I would walk out of the police department and find a new job of they forced me the get one of those things.

Red
04-11-2008, 01:49 AM
I think too many of them watched Minority Report and loved it.

They already 4 MILLION CCTV Cameras watching everybody. I'm waiting for companies there to require RFIDS.

Then it'll come here because emulating Europe is the flavor of the week.

Slavic
04-11-2008, 02:05 AM
Yea, British cities have become extremely concerned over security almost like its a fetish. Sadly Red, I too agree, its already starting to show in the states with the changes to ID's and Passports. Not to mention the warrentless wiretapping incident that got brushed off.

Red
04-11-2008, 02:12 AM
Wiretapping international phone calls in attempts to intercept intel is not quite the same as sticking RFIDS into your own citizens in your home country.

We're nowhere near close to tracking our own citizens whereabouts, via facial recognition cameras etc.

Italian Jew
04-11-2008, 10:18 AM
Meh, I really wouldn't mind. Not the type to do anything that would be illegal or incriminating, so if they want a show, so be it.

Call anything you want, intercepting calls or planting chips in people, it is a removal of freedom, get over it. It happens...

VirDeBello
04-11-2008, 09:21 PM
I really don't see the big problem with the chips......could you explain why it is a problem? I don't see what the fuss is aboot.

Misanthrope
04-11-2008, 09:57 PM
I really don't see the big problem with the chips......could you explain why it is a problem? I don't see what the fuss is aboot.

Yeah, why not simply give everyone a 'telescreen' and create the Thought Police, we'll found Minitruth and development 'Doublethink'. VirDeBello would make a great asset to the Party.

Slavic
04-11-2008, 10:40 PM
Yeah, why not simply give everyone a 'telescreen' and create the Thought Police, we'll found Minitruth and development 'Doublethink'. VirDeBello would make a great asset to the Party.

one of us, one of us, one of us

Italian Jew
04-12-2008, 12:32 AM
Its not going to go that far. I kinda think that the liberal brits would not like too much power in one authority. if it leads to anything, it will be a new series on FOX of reality TV shows.

VirDeBello
04-12-2008, 01:48 AM
Yeah, why not simply give everyone a 'telescreen' and create the Thought Police, we'll found Minitruth and development 'Doublethink'. VirDeBello would make a great asset to the Party.

Again.......no one explained to me why this is viewed as a bad thing.....are you folk just parnoid like omg they are gonna know where I am, and know my thoughts and Ima have to wear a tin foil hat to protect my brains and precious memories omg.....like that shit?

Captain Colon
04-12-2008, 08:40 AM
Again.......no one explained to me why this is viewed as a bad thing.....are you folk just parnoid like omg they are gonna know where I am, and know my thoughts and Ima have to wear a tin foil hat to protect my brains and precious memories omg.....like that shit?
Yeah really, not like anyone's ever been singled out for thinking something before so why would I care if everyone knows what I think?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_purge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia_under_Pol_Pot_%281975-1979%29


...............

Red
04-12-2008, 09:07 AM
Don't forget China's Cultural Revolution.

Captain Colon
04-12-2008, 09:35 AM
I couldn't remember the proper name of it to search for :P

Italian Jew
04-12-2008, 11:49 AM
You guys honestly believe the Brits could do something so devious? The Brits?

Too much 1984...it's a good book, but just a book. Certainly, if they develop those ministries and victory gin, then you can throw the flag, but what has been has been said to be for police officer safety. They can know where they are, big woop. Now you cannot lie about where you are at if you are on duty. I highly doubt they will be looking at you off duty, because these are the Brits, they don't have the patriot act. They will let their private life stay private, but if they are on duty, I think the police should know where the police are during that time.

The Commissar
04-12-2008, 12:17 PM
i will refuse to be microchipped, i refuse to carry and ID card and i refuse to acknowledge the leading political party just because a mindless population drew a cross in a box on a peice of paper based around what they saw on T.V adverts.
I believe in queen and country, i pay taxes, obey the law and follow her majesties word.
And unless she comes a knockin on my door asking if it would be ever so bothersome for me to have my privacy invaded for her sake, then the government can well and truly in all british terms 'fuck off'.

Italian Jew
04-12-2008, 12:50 PM
All it said in the article was the police being microchipped...to know where they are on duty. I don't think it mentioned any normal citizens getting microchipped...so you wont even have the opportunity to refuse to be microchipped, sorry... :sad:

Captain Colon
04-12-2008, 01:35 PM
All it said in the article was the police being microchipped...to know where they are on duty. I don't think it mentioned any normal citizens getting microchipped...so you wont even have the opportunity to refuse to be microchipped, sorry... :sad:
Police cars already have tracking devices on them in most jurisdictions, so why is it necessary to chip every officer? Are they going to park their car somewhere 10 miles away and then walk to a titty bar?

Italian Jew
04-12-2008, 02:43 PM
Officer's without cars...think about those that walk beats. If they know where individual officers are then they can better assist in problems.

Misanthrope
04-12-2008, 04:05 PM
You guys honestly believe the Brits could do something so devious? The Brits?

Too much 1984...it's a good book, but just a book. Certainly, if they develop those ministries and victory gin, then you can throw the flag, but what has been has been said to be for police officer safety. They can know where they are, big woop. Now you cannot lie about where you are at if you are on duty. I highly doubt they will be looking at you off duty, because these are the Brits, they don't have the patriot act. They will let their private life stay private, but if they are on duty, I think the police should know where the police are during that time.

George Orwell said that he never envisioned a future exactly like 1984, neither do I particularly. However, there's no doubt in my mind that if a society even close to that could be achieved, you can bet the governments of the world are hard at work to attain it.

The "I have nothing to hide, so why not let them?" attitude is what leads to great breaches of freedom and human rights. Chips, cameras, phone taps, ISPs giving out information, these are all gross abuses and yet no one seems to care.

Cattle, the lot of you.

VirDeBello
04-12-2008, 05:06 PM
George Orwell said that he never envisioned a future exactly like 1984, neither do I particularly. However, there's no doubt in my mind that if a society even close to that could be achieved, you can bet the governments of the world are hard at work to attain it.

The "I have nothing to hide, so why not let them?" attitude is what leads to great breaches of freedom and human rights. Chips, cameras, phone taps, ISPs giving out information, these are all gross abuses and yet no one seems to care.

Cattle, the lot of you.

Well you know what, our freedoms and rights have been abused and used since WW2. People seem to forget our rights and freedoms are more then just a piece of paper but it is what we are willing to do for our own choices. And the "I have nothing to hide, so why not let them" works both ways. Yes we are all "cattle" but without the shepards and their control on us and our lives, we would be picked off by the "wolves". Yes less control on lives would be cool but with the "wolves" among us and outside trying to kill some cattle. A sense of control is needed. And also you are just viewing the negatives of being chipped. If we are all chipped and you had a heart attack or stroke you would be thanking god that you were chipped because EMS would be notified right away and you wouldn't have to call 911 or anything. If we were chipped crimes would decrease and it would be harder for crimes to be committed. But you would lose your freedoms like you say.

Me personally, its hard to see which would be good or bad. Would you like to live a life among the herd of cattle, ignorant of the outside world, where everything is peaceful and happiness is abundant or a life where there are no shepards and you are fully aware of the worlds' cruel nature. But I guess I lean towards less control but I don't know............I guess if being chipped doesn't work then raise arms. :closedeyes:

Misanthrope
04-12-2008, 05:52 PM
Well you know what, our freedoms and rights have been abused and used since WW2. People seem to forget our rights and freedoms are more then just a piece of paper but it is what we are willing to do for our own choices. And the "I have nothing to hide, so why not let them" works both ways. Yes we are all "cattle" but without the shepards and their control on us and our lives, we would be picked off by the "wolves". Yes less control on lives would be cool but with the "wolves" among us and outside trying to kill some cattle. A sense of control is needed. And also you are just viewing the negatives of being chipped. If we are all chipped and you had a heart attack or stroke you would be thanking god that you were chipped because EMS would be notified right away and you wouldn't have to call 911 or anything. If we were chipped crimes would decrease and it would be harder for crimes to be committed. But you would lose your freedoms like you say.

Me personally, its hard to see which would be good or bad. Would you like to live a life among the herd of cattle, ignorant of the outside world, where everything is peaceful and happiness is abundant or a life where there are no shepards and you are fully aware of the worlds' cruel nature. But I guess I lean towards less control but I don't know............I guess if being chipped doesn't work then raise arms. :closedeyes:

You're insane.

I'll let Mister Sagan do the talking.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.

Italian Jew
04-12-2008, 06:04 PM
Nah, not really insane. Being chipped has both pros and cons and depends on what you personally value more in your life, more freedom or more security. Some people like their freedoms while others think some can be released for more security. Neither option is insane.

As for UK chips for police, as Havok has said, we don't even know if it is real. For those worried that chips will end freedom's for everyone, I do not believe the U.S. or UK will facilitate a program of mandatory chipping. It will be up to the person if they want to be chipped, but might be mandatory for law enforcement or armed forces personnel.

VirDeBello
04-12-2008, 08:53 PM
Nah, not really insane. Being chipped has both pros and cons and depends on what you personally value more in your life, more freedom or more security. Some people like their freedoms while others think some can be released for more security. Neither option is insane.

As for UK chips for police, as Havok has said, we don't even know if it is real. For those worried that chips will end freedom's for everyone, I do not believe the U.S. or UK will facilitate a program of mandatory chipping. It will be up to the person if they want to be chipped, but might be mandatory for law enforcement or armed forces personnel.

Actually military personal are already chipped (don't know aboot the UK though)........but that a voluntary thing and has useful aspects, like if you were kidnapped by terrorists or your plane got shot down. :thumbup1:

Italian Jew
04-12-2008, 09:24 PM
or if you are lost hiking or adrift at sea, etc....

Captain Colon
04-13-2008, 12:51 PM
Nah, not really insane. Being chipped has both pros and cons and depends on what you personally value more in your life, more freedom or more security. Some people like their freedoms while others think some can be released for more security. Neither option is insane.
The cons outweigh the pros by a huge margin, and it IS insane. Think about every small-town asshole cop you've ever known and think about them knowing where you were at all times.

And if you think stuff like that wouldn't happen all the time, YOU'RE insane. And suffice to say, they're not going to make it a combined tracker/pacemaker/medicalert/eggfryer that's going to call police when you're having a heart attack or when you get shot in the face.

Italian Jew
04-13-2008, 12:58 PM
Well, if everyone was chipped, we are talking hundreds of millions of people in the U.S. alone...so they would be looking at mine all the time? I highly doubt that the police would be so bored as to make sure I am tucked in at night, or discover Joe Schmoe is out partying.

If it is the optional plan, they would probably not look at where your chip is unless they knew you were missing, skipped your court date, went AWOL, etc. Every cop I have met has not been an asshole as you say, but really haven't seen any "small" town cops in places with 30 people in a town.

No need to call people insane just because they are less paranoid than you...




http://www.natambu.com/wp-photos/20070323-081701-1.jpeg

Captain Colon
04-13-2008, 01:54 PM
I highly doubt that the police would be so bored as to make sure I am tucked in at night, or discover Joe Schmoe is out partying.

And if you think stuff like that wouldn't happen all the time, YOU'RE insane.
I guess come back when you've actually dealt with backwater cops. You know, when you've gotten a speeding ticket "because I don't like your attitude," or when the drug dog tears up the interior of your car (and finds absolutely nothing) because "you guys smell like weed, I'm gonna have to search your vehicle."

You really need to stop trying to argue about things you don't know anything about.

Italian Jew
04-13-2008, 02:03 PM
And you are stereotyping these "backwater" cops. Stop arguing about things you THINK you know about.

Captain Colon
04-13-2008, 02:07 PM
:001_rolleyes:

VirDeBello
04-13-2008, 02:53 PM
The cons outweigh the pros by a huge margin, and it IS insane. Think about every small-town asshole cop you've ever known and think about them knowing where you were at all times.

And if you think stuff like that wouldn't happen all the time, YOU'RE insane. And suffice to say, they're not going to make it a combined tracker/pacemaker/medicalert/eggfryer that's going to call police when you're having a heart attack or when you get shot in the face.

Woah............. :laugh: :001_tt2: lol Were insane now...I always knew it! :scared:

I think someone is scared of big brother, lol like I said before if it all comes to that, then by all means you will have my support to raise arms. But I highly doubt it will come down to this. The most that little chip will have is a GPS thingy. And I KNOW! If you daughter or son was kidnapped by some sick fuck, was raped and killed you would be crying the blues and wishing your kid had that GPS thing. Or would you come back and say its all propaganda, that guy was hired by the government to win my vote of everyone being chipped? What else or other "cons" are there with being chipped? Oh wow they know I am taking a shit, or I am in front of my computer jerking off. You keep mentioning that there are huge cons that outweigh the pros. Well what are they? Besides the obvious GPS thingy.........

And you are forgetting the corporations also......

Captain Colon
04-13-2008, 04:05 PM
I think someone is scared of big brother, lol like I said before if it all comes to that, then by all means you will have my support to raise arms. But I highly doubt it will come down to this.
That's what they say every time and by the time anyone smartens up it's too late. Every atrocity that's ever been committed, nobody ever wanted to believe it could happen before it did. Don't call us paranoid when we're the ones who have thousands of years of historical evidence backing us up and plenty from the past half century alone.

I guess you think people who buy fire extinguishers are unreasonably paranoid that their house is going to burn down too. Or people who buy insurance in places where it isn't required are just paranoid freaks that think everyone without insurance is out to get them.


The most that little chip will have is a GPS thingy. And I KNOW! If you daughter or son was kidnapped by some sick fuck, was raped and killed you would be crying the blues and wishing your kid had that GPS thing.
Don't pull that sob story bullshit with me, if I had a kid (which I won't), I'd never do something like that to them. Never try the "I KNOW YOU'LL FEEL THIS WAY ABOUT SOMETHING" trick, it just makes you look like a pretentious shit.

Nobody needs to know where I am, ever. Convicts out on work duty or newly released on parole, sure...when you're convicted of a felony it's part of the game that you lose a lot of your rights. Not law-abiding citizens who might end up arrested because they went into a bank that has someone working there who is under investigation for funding terrorism, and that person happens to make large cash deposits because they've gotten a lot of bounced checks in the past and don't accept them anymore.

What else or other "cons" are there with being chipped? Oh wow they know I am taking a shit, or I am in front of my computer jerking off. You keep mentioning that there are huge cons that outweigh the pros. Well what are they? Besides the obvious GPS thingy.........
Hmmm, let's see...

1. Can people with electronic implants (pacemakers, for example) go near microwaves? Airport metal detectors? MRIs? Large generators or other devices which produce a strong magnetic field? Even if there's no health hazard, it will most likely interfere with the signal, making it useless.

2. How much encryption are you going to use on the signal? Can anyone with the money just go and get a lojack tracker and see what everyone's doing?

3. How much power is the device going to use? Are you going to have to sit around by the wall and recharge once in a while? Average life span is around 75 years now I believe, that's a long time for a transmitter battery to last.

4. How powerful are you going to make the transmitters? Directly tied to #3, and the more powerful it is the larger it has to be, and the more potential for health hazards.



It's also deliciously ironic how many of you bitch and moan about bush and the patriot act and illegal wiretapping and omg being imprisoned without charges, then you turn around and say you don't mind if the same people doing that know where you are and what you're doing at all times. hypocriticalkid iz hypocritical

Italian Jew
04-13-2008, 04:20 PM
Dude, Bush is not going to be looking at my location..because that dumb SOB is going out of office. I would trust the police with my location. Wiretapping 24/7 is different than looking at your location based on a chip when you are in distress. your argument is based only on if the gov't misuses the technology and if is mandatory. If anything were to come out, it would be optional for normal citizens.

Also, your examples of fire extinguishers and insurance go along with getting the chip as well, seeing as the chip could help save you...as a fire extinguisher....and as a precaution just in case of something bad happening...as does insurance.

It would not be that easy to locate somebody because you would need to know the exact chip to find somebody. You can't just google search their chips or log onto them with wi fi.

IF a magnetic field can affect the chip, they can shield it. Magnetic shielding for chips has already been developed, so that is not a concern.

Also, it is possible to make the chip run off of the body, so by doing normal things like eating, drinking, etc. you are powering the chip. You don't need a large power source for it.

I know pets are able to get chips in areas, and I have not heard of any of them dying off because of them.

If you are worried about a lack of freedom, go right ahead, but do not claim those who are interested in ideals other than your own are insane. If you are worried about freedom, let people have the freedom to choose for themselves.

Captain Colon
04-13-2008, 04:51 PM
Also, your examples of fire extinguishers and insurance go along with getting the chip as well, seeing as the chip could help save you...as a fire extinguisher....and as a precaution just in case of something bad happening...as does insurance.
A fire extinguisher doesn't put personal information out on the airwaves. Insurance doesn't keep records that I frequent titty bars on the weekend that some reporter is going to pry out of a loose-lipped government worker and use against me when I run for a political office.

I know pets are able to get chips in areas, and I have not heard of any of them dying off because of them.
Those are RFID chips, not GPS chips. All they are is a radio tag that identifies the animal if it's found and brought somewhere that can read them. Like I said, know what you're talking about BEFORE you talk.

Aside from the big-brother-knows-where-you-are-always issue...

We ALREADY have RFID "ePassports," and they've been cracked years ago. Here's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/6182207.stm) a BBC article on it. AFAIK the RFID chips are only vulnurable when they're transmitting (when they receive an interrogation signal from the reader), but a GPS chip would be transmitting ALL the time, meaning it's constantly open to interception. With handheld GPS units this isn't a problem, the most you'll get out of it is some travel routes and "THIS UNIT BELONGS TO BLAH BLAH PLEASE RETURN TO BLAH BLAH," stuff you can find in the phone book. But for your tracking system to work as you guys want it to (as some kind of automatic 911 system), you'd have to at least have that and next of kin information and medical information. People would probably want to use it as a government ID (like the ePassport) so you'd need an ID number that would be considered equivalent to a driver's license or social security number in it. Whether the data can be stolen or not isn't even a question: it can, and it's easy. Once you download the data it's merely a matter of getting through the encryption.

Likewise, it's not a question of whether the encryption can be cracked, it's merely a matter of how long it would take. In Sep 2007, 1PFLOP of the 1.3PFLOPs total of computing power in the Folding@Home program is contributed by PS3s...that's 76%. That's about twice as much power as the fastest supercomputer in the world. You really think it'd be hard to crack whatever encryption algorithm they come up with?


If you are worried about a lack of freedom, go right ahead, but do not claim those who are interested in ideals other than your own are insane. If you are worried about freedom, let people have the freedom to choose for themselves.
No, you're insane because you willfully ignore heaps of evidence that prove you wrong about a number of points.

Italian Jew
04-13-2008, 05:12 PM
Obviously you are worried about your perfect little life and the extreme case that could happen if you get chipped. Worst case scenario type of guy...ok, well I can see that you can never look past your fears.

Not the RFID ones, they have GPS collars and chips, but the chips don't have as much range as the collars, which is why I said in some areas. The tech for the GPS chip isn't nearly finished because the range needs to be improved.

OK, how about a compromise? You could design the chip so it would only activate after it hit a scanner, so before you head out on a boat trip, hiking, etc. you could scan it. Once you are done, you can scan it again to deactivate it. If you do not check back in a certain time, as all avid hiker's and travelers do, the authorities could check the location of the chip and save your ass.

If you are worried about anybody decrypting your chip to find out where you are...its a good chance that they would not take the time to get the gear, decrypt the chip and pinpoint you. Easier to have some other form of surveillance on you. The government already has technology to spy on you and find you relatively quickly unless you go Amish and stay off of what sci-fi people love to call "the grid".

Your points, your "evidence" does nothing to disprove the idea of implanting chips in people. It just shows your side of the argument. There is no right or wrong answer, only what you think is right or wrong. What is right for you does not mean it is right for the world, the same for what I say , or anyone says. If your opinion is that chipping people is too much of a violation, then by all means, you are right. If people share my opinion in that it can be useful and the gov't will not abuse it on your predicted level, then I am right. Theoretically, we are both correct and wrong at the same time.

Anyways, its not like this is going to happen in the near future on a massive scale. Even optionally, chips need to be developed more for the GPS technology to be effective. until then, I suggest we no longer flip out over the issue into it is close to becoming a reality. :thumbup:

VirDeBello
04-13-2008, 06:14 PM
That's what they say every time and by the time anyone smartens up it's too late. Every atrocity that's ever been committed, nobody ever wanted to believe it could happen before it did. Don't call us paranoid when we're the ones who have thousands of years of historical evidence backing us up and plenty from the past half century alone.

I guess you think people who buy fire extinguishers are unreasonably paranoid that their house is going to burn down too. Or people who buy insurance in places where it isn't required are just paranoid freaks that think everyone without insurance is out to get them.


Don't pull that sob story bullshit with me, if I had a kid (which I won't), I'd never do something like that to them. Never try the "I KNOW YOU'LL FEEL THIS WAY ABOUT SOMETHING" trick, it just makes you look like a pretentious shit.

Nobody needs to know where I am, ever. Convicts out on work duty or newly released on parole, sure...when you're convicted of a felony it's part of the game that you lose a lot of your rights. Not law-abiding citizens who might end up arrested because they went into a bank that has someone working there who is under investigation for funding terrorism, and that person happens to make large cash deposits because they've gotten a lot of bounced checks in the past and don't accept them anymore.

Hmmm, let's see...

1. Can people with electronic implants (pacemakers, for example) go near microwaves? Airport metal detectors? MRIs? Large generators or other devices which produce a strong magnetic field? Even if there's no health hazard, it will most likely interfere with the signal, making it useless.

2. How much encryption are you going to use on the signal? Can anyone with the money just go and get a lojack tracker and see what everyone's doing?

3. How much power is the device going to use? Are you going to have to sit around by the wall and recharge once in a while? Average life span is around 75 years now I believe, that's a long time for a transmitter battery to last.

4. How powerful are you going to make the transmitters? Directly tied to #3, and the more powerful it is the larger it has to be, and the more potential for health hazards.



It's also deliciously ironic how many of you bitch and moan about bush and the patriot act and illegal wiretapping and omg being imprisoned without charges, then you turn around and say you don't mind if the same people doing that know where you are and what you're doing at all times. hypocriticalkid iz hypocritical

Oh okay....then what is this historical evidence you speak of? I would like to read it.

Fire extinguishers and being chipped? lol Maybe I am a bit slow but I don't see the connection and your point with it. I can understand if a person was paranoid if they bought a fire extinguisher for every room even their bathrooms and closets, then yes they would be paranoid. But just one or two fire extinguishers and fire alarms is not paranoia.

lmao well I don't know what pretentious means soooo.......I can't answer that one but lmfao I know what shit means! :w00t: So I'll answer half of it, no I am not shit. I am human ^.^ but even if I were shit, it would be embarrassing on your half, losing a debate against shit(me).

Well as for that lucky person who got arrested you know what.....if they had no part in the terrorist plot. They would be found innocent or the police or government would investigate that person to make sure they ain't locking up the wrong person.

Italian debunked your cons that you presented and he is correct.

Well my good sir, I never bitched about wiretapping because that has always been around since the 60's when ECHELON was created. Those super computers can intercept any message in the world. Whether fax, e-mail, telephone or what have you. When people bitch about Bush saying wiretapping was legal or whatever, I just tell them that shit has been around since the Cold War. Hypocritical.....again.......I don't know what some of the words you say lol so please explain.

Captain Colon
04-13-2008, 06:18 PM
Obviously you are worried about your perfect little life and the extreme case that could happen if you get chipped. Worst case scenario type of guy...ok, well I can see that you can never look past your fears.
My viewpoint is simply the most pragmatic. To support such a system means you not only trust our current government to use the information lawfully, but EVERY future government EVER. If we somehow get conquered by China in the future, would you trust THEM with that kind of information?

You're the one who sounds like you can't get past your fear that you'll be raped and murdered or lost in the woods never to be found again.


OK, how about a compromise? You could design the chip so it would only activate after it hit a scanner, so before you head out on a boat trip, hiking, etc. you could scan it. Once you are done, you can scan it again to deactivate it. If you do not check back in a certain time, as all avid hiker's and travelers do, the authorities could check the location of the chip and save your ass.
I don't think you get it...if you WANT that, there's already systems you can get to do it. All "avid" hikers and travelers use them. Many skiiers use them as well, in case they end up caught in an avalanche. The whole point of the argument is that it WOULDN'T be an option.


If you are worried about anybody decrypting your chip to find out where you are...its a good chance that they would not take the time to get the gear, decrypt the chip and pinpoint you. Easier to have some other form of surveillance on you. The government already has technology to spy on you and find you relatively quickly unless you go Amish and stay off of what sci-fi people love to call "the grid".
And how exactly are more traditional forms of surveillance (shadowing, wiretapping, etc.) more efficient than a computer system that automatically tracks and records your whereabouts? Are you saying they're going to send agents to find you when they could just open a data file with every place you've been for the past week?


Your points, your "evidence" does nothing to disprove the idea of implanting chips in people. It just shows your side of the argument. There is no right or wrong answer, only what you think is right or wrong. What is right for you does not mean it is right for the world, the same for what I say , or anyone says. If your opinion is that chipping people is too much of a violation, then by all means, you are right. If people share my opinion in that it can be useful and the gov't will not abuse it on your predicted level, then I am right. Theoretically, we are both correct and wrong at the same time.
What I meant was you're wrong to say that the information won't be misused. The law of averages is simply against you, every single person involved in the system can't be pure and good. We had a lot of informants in Afghanistan that helped us out a great deal and our government promised them immunity...they're sitting in Guantanamo on drug charges right now.


Anyways, its not like this is going to happen in the near future on a massive scale.
I'm pretty sure that's what they said about a certain someone's plans to conquer Europe too. The whole IDEA is to chip away at rights so slowly that by the time you even realize what's happening, it's too late. That's why stuff like all these anti-terrorism laws are dangerous...only stupid people think that Bush is actually going to instate himself as dictator-for-life with Cheney as his T-101 VPBOT sidekick, but could someone in the future with actual nasty ideas use these laws to paint his actions as legal until it's too late? Augustus did it very cleverly with the Roman constitution...whether for personal interests or for the good of Rome is unknown, but the point is he did it, people did it in civilizations before him, and people will continue to do it until we're genetically engineered to be true communists who act only with the best interests of the collective in mind.

VirDeBello
04-13-2008, 06:30 PM
A fire extinguisher doesn't put personal information out on the airwaves. Insurance doesn't keep records that I frequent titty bars on the weekend that some reporter is going to pry out of a loose-lipped government worker and use against me when I run for a political office.

Those are RFID chips, not GPS chips. All they are is a radio tag that identifies the animal if it's found and brought somewhere that can read them. Like I said, know what you're talking about BEFORE you talk.

Aside from the big-brother-knows-where-you-are-always issue...

We ALREADY have RFID "ePassports," and they've been cracked years ago. Here's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/6182207.stm) a BBC article on it. AFAIK the RFID chips are only vulnurable when they're transmitting (when they receive an interrogation signal from the reader), but a GPS chip would be transmitting ALL the time, meaning it's constantly open to interception. With handheld GPS units this isn't a problem, the most you'll get out of it is some travel routes and "THIS UNIT BELONGS TO BLAH BLAH PLEASE RETURN TO BLAH BLAH," stuff you can find in the phone book. But for your tracking system to work as you guys want it to (as some kind of automatic 911 system), you'd have to at least have that and next of kin information and medical information. People would probably want to use it as a government ID (like the ePassport) so you'd need an ID number that would be considered equivalent to a driver's license or social security number in it. Whether the data can be stolen or not isn't even a question: it can, and it's easy. Once you download the data it's merely a matter of getting through the encryption.

Likewise, it's not a question of whether the encryption can be cracked, it's merely a matter of how long it would take. In Sep 2007, 1PFLOP of the 1.3PFLOPs total of computing power in the Folding@Home program is contributed by PS3s...that's 76%. That's about twice as much power as the fastest supercomputer in the world. You really think it'd be hard to crack whatever encryption algorithm they come up with?


No, you're insane because you willfully ignore heaps of evidence that prove you wrong about a number of points.

Ahhh......yes they were cracked and proven unsuccessful. So that means that one way not to make a chip for us. It took Edison thousands of times to create a successful light bulb, same here. Just because we didn't create the a practical chip, doesn't mean we won't.

The supercomputer thingy.....just because the supercomputers we know about aren't that powerful doesn't mean there are ones not shown to the public. Think of it from a corporation and government stand point. If you had a supercomputer 100x times better then anyone computer. Would you want to keep it to yourself for control or sell the technology for money. ECHELON uses supercomputers advanced enough to process every message in the world sent electronically. Maybe its me but I don't know any computer that can do that where I can buy it off newegg.com or best buy....

VirDeBello
04-13-2008, 06:32 PM
My viewpoint is simply the most pragmatic. To support such a system means you not only trust our current government to use the information lawfully, but EVERY future government EVER. If we somehow get conquered by China in the future, would you trust THEM with that kind of information?

You're the one who sounds like you can't get past your fear that you'll be raped and murdered or lost in the woods never to be found again.


I don't think you get it...if you WANT that, there's already systems you can get to do it. All "avid" hikers and travelers use them. Many skiiers use them as well, in case they end up caught in an avalanche. The whole point of the argument is that it WOULDN'T be an option.


And how exactly are more traditional forms of surveillance (shadowing, wiretapping, etc.) more efficient than a computer system that automatically tracks and records your whereabouts? Are you saying they're going to send agents to find you when they could just open a data file with every place you've been for the past week?


What I meant was you're wrong to say that the information won't be misused. The law of averages is simply against you, every single person involved in the system can't be pure and good. We had a lot of informants in Afghanistan that helped us out a great deal and our government promised them immunity...they're sitting in Guantanamo on drug charges right now.


I'm pretty sure that's what they said about a certain someone's plans to conquer Europe too. The whole IDEA is to chip away at rights so slowly that by the time you even realize what's happening, it's too late. That's why stuff like all these anti-terrorism laws are dangerous...only stupid people think that Bush is actually going to instate himself as dictator-for-life with Cheney as his T-101 VPBOT sidekick, but could someone in the future with actual nasty ideas use these laws to paint his actions as legal until it's too late? Augustus did it very cleverly with the Roman constitution...whether for personal interests or for the good of Rome is unknown, but the point is he did it, people did it in civilizations before him, and people will continue to do it until we're genetically engineered to be true communists who act only with the best interests of the collective in mind.

All I have to say to that is 2nd Amendment.

Italian Jew
04-13-2008, 07:07 PM
Well, the government is out to get us...shit, might as well prevent the standing of an army. The government might use it against the people! We have thousands of nuclear warheads; the power to destroy the world, and you think the police having the ability to locate somebody is always automatically going to be bad?
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5260/tinfoilhatyz5.jpg

Its called the future...technology generally gets better, so instead of hauling around GPS equipment with you, you have a chip which cannot be dropped, lost, stolen... Saying that we already have stuff is like saying, "well, we could have those machine guns and semi-automatic rifles, but we already have muskets so we are fine."

Nobody is going to record your actions unless you are a convict on parole...are you worried that they might find something that is illegal? I highly doubt your life is at all interesting enough where someone jots down what time you get up, when you jerk off, etc...

Time will tell what happens. You don't want a chip, don't get one, but don't say your reasons are any more correct than anyone else's. Its your point of view. I am not saying I would want the chip, but if I did, I would want the option of having it. All I am saying is that people should choose if they want it.



P.S. Having a nationwide GPS tracking department would put a hell of a strain on the budget, so I doubt the gov't would be watching everybody. Spying on them with conventional ways now is more efficient because it costs less than installing and constantly monitoring GPS locations of someone's day to day locations.

VirDeBello
04-13-2008, 09:56 PM
Well, the government is out to get us...shit, might as well prevent the standing of an army. The government might use it against the people! We have thousands of nuclear warheads; the power to destroy the world, and you think the police having the ability to locate somebody is always automatically going to be bad?
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5260/tinfoilhatyz5.jpg

Its called the future...technology generally gets better, so instead of hauling around GPS equipment with you, you have a chip which cannot be dropped, lost, stolen... Saying that we already have stuff is like saying, "well, we could have those machine guns and semi-automatic rifles, but we already have muskets so we are fine."

Nobody is going to record your actions unless you are a convict on parole...are you worried that they might find something that is illegal? I highly doubt your life is at all interesting enough where someone jots down what time you get up, when you jerk off, etc...

Time will tell what happens. You don't want a chip, don't get one, but don't say your reasons are any more correct than anyone else's. Its your point of view. I am not saying I would want the chip, but if I did, I would want the option of having it. All I am saying is that people should choose if they want it.



P.S. Having a nationwide GPS tracking department would put a hell of a strain on the budget, so I doubt the gov't would be watching everybody. Spying on them with conventional ways now is more efficient because it costs less than installing and constantly monitoring GPS locations of someone's day to day locations.

Well thats why I said coroporations would play a part in this. Lets say....

Government wants GPS chips in us and every new born person in the US and people permanently moving to the US. It would cost alot to do that. So you would get corporations, lets says GE. GE says okay, we will help you guys except I want these chips to have medical technology like telling you if you have high blood pressure, sugar levels, and what have you. Then GE would go to hospital X saying we will supply you with GE products like hospital stuff......lmao I don't know the fancy names for equipment, for a lower price then average sale but all hospital equipment you buy from now on must be GE. (Like a contract I guess) Whenever that person gits high blood pressure or what have you. The chip would recommend you got to hospital X for medical advice and support. Or something like that. So something like the chips could happen in our life time. It would be interesting to see what comes out of it.

Italian Jew
04-13-2008, 11:50 PM
and we all thought pop ups were bad...

"your blood sugar is low...but right now for only 19.99 EURO you can get your supply of Insulin from Medical Supplies Inc....and wait, order in the next 10 minutes and we will double your order...YES, DOUBLE YOUR ORDER FOR FREE!"

I figure this is in the future, so we will have switched to the Euro in the US by then :001_tt2:

jk....OR AM I? :confused1:

Captain Colon
04-14-2008, 10:13 AM
Oh okay....then what is this historical evidence you speak of? I would like to read it.
Historical evidence of people being cataloged and then later tracked down for not-so-nice things to happen to them? Are you serious?

http://jeremiahandrews.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/yellow_star_of_david.jpg?????????


Ahhh......yes they were cracked and proven unsuccessful. So that means that one way not to make a chip for us. It took Edison thousands of times to create a successful light bulb, same here. Just because we didn't create the a practical chip, doesn't mean we won't.
The ONLY method that's almost 100% secure is one-time keys where a new key is generated for each message. And even those aren't 100% secure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-in-the-middle_attack

Once a method is devised for actually decrypting it, it's as easy as stealing wireless by sitting outside someone's house.


Well, the government is out to get us...shit, might as well prevent the standing of an army. The government might use it against the people! We have thousands of nuclear warheads; the power to destroy the world, and you think the police having the ability to locate somebody is always automatically going to be bad?
Yes. And stop twisting my words around to make it sound like I'm saying it's a conspiracy. What you're saying is basically "IF ONE LIFE IS SAVED THEN IT'S WORTH IT!!" People advocating gun control say the same thing, ignoring the fact that there's over 2 million cases of firearms being successfully used defensively in the US each year. You continue to ignore the fact that any kind of tracking system like this inevitably gets abused, it's happened in EVERY such system ever devised at some point. All you do is just keep saying "omg tin foil hatz loolololoollol" like you're actually making a point.


All I have to say to that is 2nd Amendment.
You mean that one that's been chipped away at for the past century and proves my point further?


P.S. Having a nationwide GPS tracking department would put a hell of a strain on the budget, so I doubt the gov't would be watching everybody. Spying on them with conventional ways now is more efficient because it costs less than installing and constantly monitoring GPS locations of someone's day to day locations.
You keep saying this, completely ignoring the fact that any such system would HAVE to be automated to be effective. Someone would manually go in and enter "hot spots" which would forward information to an actual person to look at, like restricted areas or a suspected terrorist meeting place.


Nobody is going to record your actions unless you are a convict on parole...are you worried that they might find something that is illegal? I highly doubt your life is at all interesting enough where someone jots down what time you get up, when you jerk off, etc...
You're fucking right I'm worried about them finding something illegal. Do you use drugs? Have you ever used drugs? Have you ever had a friend who used drugs, maybe had a little business going? Would you feel safe going to his house if you knew that every time you went in there, a computer was recording you as a potential drug user/dealer? Or are you confident that nothing bad will happen to you because you've got nothing to hide?


Italian debunked your cons that you presented and he is correct.
No he didn't.


Well my good sir, I never bitched about wiretapping because that has always been around since the 60's when ECHELON was created. Those super computers can intercept any message in the world. Whether fax, e-mail, telephone or what have you. When people bitch about Bush saying wiretapping was legal or whatever, I just tell them that shit has been around since the Cold War. Hypocritical.....again.......I don't know what some of the words you say lol so please explain.
How does it being an existing technology make it less legal? Do you even know what a law is? :\


You don't want a chip, don't get one, but don't say your reasons are any more correct than anyone else's. Its your point of view.
I'm allowed to say my reasons are better because I HAVE PRECEDENT ON MY SIDE. How hard is that to understand? You're basically doing this:

ME - "i do not liek dis idea similar tingz have been tried in da past n were abusedz by da gobumentz"
U - "omg lol conspiracy watch out da men in blak r cumin lol noob!11!"
ME - "im in mah point, supportin' it wit historical evidencesz"
U - "omg lol conspiracy watch out da men in blak r cumin lol noob!11!"

Itch
04-14-2008, 11:02 AM
It's....MOHAMMAD AL-FAYED'S CONSPIRACY HOUR!

What do we have today, Mo?

We all know the Titanic was sank tragically, but was it really an iceberg? My well-educated sources tell me it was, indeed, a White Fiat Uno! Towed by seals! On jet packs!

Also, the captain of the ship was blinded by MI5 anti-personnel lights! How else could he not have seen an iceberg?

:thumbup:

The Titanic was a conspiracy.. and here's the proof!

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af07

Metal > Ice !

Italian Jew
04-14-2008, 11:29 AM
Just because Hitler did things doesn't mean others will. Precedent means nothing really. All it shows that it was done before, and yes, it may happen again, but it does not mean it will definitely, 100% happen again. According to your rules in using precedent, anything that somebody bad did, people can no longer do. This is not a catalog, so stop treating it like one. Putting chips in people is not going to lead to a catalog of all U.S. citizens because our government is not run by Nazis, they would have a hard time regulating what everyone in the country did (our authorities can barely monitor and enforce people as it is today, so how are they going to enforce EVERYONE?), and taxes would have to rise to an astronomical level to put the system in place and would cost billions. I am sure the people would hate that little detail most of all, because you can lie to them all you want for national security, but if you raise taxes past a certain level, they get mad.

Personally, if you are in an illegal place, you are dumb to begin with. If you get arrested for what someone else does, you will be released because they need something called evidence in the court system nowadays. You will be questioned about why you are in the illegal "hot spot" in the first place, not convicted of anything. And that is if they are watching you. They would probably use a system where the less serious offenders are not watched constantly; they are checked every now and then, but if they cross certain boundaries, a flag goes up. The more serious criminals would be watched carefully, but there would be no way there would be any 24/7 surveillance of somebody through a GPS system. The preferred method would be someone actually there outside of the location and tailing the person if they left. GPS would just tell where they are, not what they are doing. Can't just convict somebody of location...

There is no need to cry wolf, because as Havok says, this story is probably false, so you worst-case scenarios can take a rest for now. No need to bring up Hitler to prove point...which really doesn't help in any fashion, but it is the thing on the interwebz. Ta ta!



If you further seek to argue this point, you may do so by yourself as I find it irrelevant to argue about something that is not taking shape. And remember....

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/CLASS/130-126~Big-Brother-is-Watching-You-Posters.jpg

Tcp-Kill
04-14-2008, 12:42 PM
Lol, kind of sad having chips..

still many think good idea

Captain Colon
04-14-2008, 04:12 PM
Just because Hitler did things doesn't mean others will. Precedent means nothing really. All it shows that it was done before, and yes, it may happen again, but it does not mean it will definitely, 100% happen again. According to your rules in using precedent, anything that somebody bad did, people can no longer do. This is not a catalog, so stop treating it like one. Putting chips in people is not going to lead to a catalog of all U.S. citizens because our government is not run by Nazis, they would have a hard time regulating what everyone in the country did (our authorities can barely monitor and enforce people as it is today, so how are they going to enforce EVERYONE?), and taxes would have to rise to an astronomical level to put the system in place and would cost billions. I am sure the people would hate that little detail most of all, because you can lie to them all you want for national security, but if you raise taxes past a certain level, they get mad.

Personally, if you are in an illegal place, you are dumb to begin with. If you get arrested for what someone else does, you will be released because they need something called evidence in the court system nowadays. You will be questioned about why you are in the illegal "hot spot" in the first place, not convicted of anything. And that is if they are watching you. They would probably use a system where the less serious offenders are not watched constantly; they are checked every now and then, but if they cross certain boundaries, a flag goes up. The more serious criminals would be watched carefully, but there would be no way there would be any 24/7 surveillance of somebody through a GPS system. The preferred method would be someone actually there outside of the location and tailing the person if they left. GPS would just tell where they are, not what they are doing. Can't just convict somebody of location...

There is no need to cry wolf, because as Havok says, this story is probably false, so you worst-case scenarios can take a rest for now. No need to bring up Hitler to prove point...which really doesn't help in any fashion, but it is the thing on the interwebz. Ta ta!



If you further seek to argue this point, you may do so by yourself as I find it irrelevant to argue about something that is not taking shape. And remember....

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/CLASS/130-126~Big-Brother-is-Watching-You-Posters.jpg
http://www.commentbox.net/blog/uploads/images/lamp.jpg

VirDeBello
04-14-2008, 06:31 PM
You mean that one that's been chipped away at for the past century and proves my point further?

How does it being an existing technology make it less legal? Do you even know what a law is? :\


And the fact that people can buy automatic rifles, buy explosive substances and kids under the age like me buy a pistol? Remember your rights isn't what is said on a piece of paper but what you are capable of doin' and willing to do.

Yes I know what a law is and like they say.......laws are meant to be broken. Either by the government or us.