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View Full Version : Muslim public school in MN doesn't fly American flag, TAX PAYER FUNDED



Red
04-10-2008, 05:08 PM
He couldn't figure out how to use the flag pole... right


http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1

LitKey
04-10-2008, 05:51 PM
wow, fucking dumb

Italian Jew
04-10-2008, 06:11 PM
Probably would not have been noticed at all in a more liberal state, and I don't think they are teaching the religion, just endorsing it a bit more than it should seeing as it is a publicly funded school.

How do you not know how to operate a flag pole?

Might be the press pushing too much on not flying the American flag outside, but it is not that big of a deal because they aren't flying any flags as the article does not mention any others, but the law is the law.

Misanthrope
04-10-2008, 06:53 PM
The lack of a flag doesn't bother me, stupid law I think. Even allowing children to do whatever rituals they 'need' to perform is fine. Though, I think a tad more investigation should be held.

LegalSmash
04-10-2008, 06:56 PM
Great. We are turning into france.

Minn has one of the largest... (pauses, readjusts), muslim populations in the US from what I understand.

Last year several taxi companies were being harassed by CAIR and ACLU because muslim taxi drivers were refusing to give rides to persons leaving from establishments that served alcohol, and asking persons at the airport if they were carrying alcohol, if they were, the taxi driver would refuse to take them.

Several of these holier than though schmucks were rightfully suspended and are suing the companies for allegedly interfering with their free practice of islam.


The cases have not yet moved forward from what I know, but its a sticky situation and state.

He should be instructed on how to use the pole and raise the flag, and then do it. State buildings are supposed to carry the state and federal flag... even state buildings were religious groups meet in.

It is a perfectly reasonable law and it should be followed.

Slavic
04-10-2008, 07:02 PM
What exactly is the difference between a public school and a charter school?

Also I only really see the flag things as the only problem, seeing how it is state law. My old highschool allowed the few Muslim students we had to leave class at certain periods to pray, i'm also certain that catholic schools do similar things.

phatman76
04-10-2008, 07:06 PM
I don't understand why nativity scenes and the ten commandments are a crime and why riots aren't happening over issues like this....

as for charter schools, they are privately owned but very cheap or free and funded largely by the gov.t, semi-public so to speak

Italian Jew
04-10-2008, 07:26 PM
The thing with Nativity scenes and the 10 commandments is that they cannot be displayed on public (i think) or government property because of the whole separation of church and state deal. To be fair, you would have to place all religious images or none at all on government property. I don't see why the people who want these things can just place the items some place else, it wouldn't be a problem.

As for the flag, it doesn't need to be an enforceable law, just a guideline. It does not really matter if a school is flying the flag or not, or some other building that is funded by tax money, but it is a good gesture. If you fly it, good for you, if not, who cares? Its not like they are revolting against the government or anything.

LegalSmash
04-10-2008, 07:50 PM
its a school, a public building, thats the problem

Italian Jew
04-10-2008, 08:04 PM
why don't they just get an honor squad or whatever they call them to raise the flag during the day. It will get the kids involved with something that would chill people out on both fronts.

Red
04-10-2008, 08:21 PM
I wouldn't mind muslims being free to practice etc at school IF other religions (Mainly Christianity) weren't so ostracized. Either you let EVERYONE put up christmas trees, menorahs, statues of Buddha, Pictures of Mohammed, scratch that last one, etc etc.

But to go after Christians/Catholics for displaying their beliefs, then in turn giving other religions a free pass really pisses me off.

Either all or nothing.

*Note: I'm agnostic, think organized religion is silly, but think it should be people's right to practice it all equally, not put one above another.

Italian Jew
04-10-2008, 08:49 PM
Where have other religions gotten a free pass?

Repeat
04-10-2008, 09:08 PM
That pisses me off. First off, if it's tax payer funded then it's total bullshit. Funding should go to public schools that are FOR EVERYONE. If it's just for one religious group then isn't that discrimination funded by the government? What the fuck?

Secondly, if you're in America, FLY THE FUCKING FLAG! I'm so sick of anti-American 'Americans'. You might not agree with the current state of politics but you are an American, damnit!

I'm too mad to write any more.

Italian Jew
04-10-2008, 10:16 PM
rawr

Red
04-10-2008, 10:36 PM
Where have other religions gotten a free pass?

Off the top of my head;

In an airport in Seattle I believe. A rabbi complained about the christmas trees saying they demonstrated christianity and that there should be a giant menorah along side the x'mas trees. In response they simply took down the trees instead of putting up a menorah.

I don't see how a tree in an of itself is religious compared to a gigantic candle holder specifically designed for a religious holiday. A tree is a freaking tree.

Basically the entire war on x'mas waged by the media a couple years ago, which still continues to this day.

Italian Jew
04-10-2008, 10:46 PM
Well, if those trees were decorated, then they were christmas trees...but those are really geared towards the commercial xmas, not the real xmas. The media tries to show the commercial xmas as better than the religious xmas because they can make money off of ads and stuff.

Also, from what I have read about the issue, the rabbi never asked to remove the trees. The airport just took them down to prevent any trouble. They put them back up after a while though.

http://www.christianworldmissions.com/rabbi-complains-about-christmas-decor.html

What would be a good example is how any other religions violate the separation of church and state in the U.S.

Misanthrope
04-10-2008, 11:14 PM
Off the top of my head;

In an airport in Seattle I believe. A rabbi complained about the christmas trees saying they demonstrated christianity and that there should be a giant menorah along side the x'mas trees. In response they simply took down the trees instead of putting up a menorah.

I don't see how a tree in an of itself is religious compared to a gigantic candle holder specifically designed for a religious holiday. A tree is a freaking tree.

Basically the entire war on x'mas waged by the media a couple years ago, which still continues to this day.

Something tells me you're conservative, something also tells me you watch Fox News.

Red
04-10-2008, 11:35 PM
Conservative/libertarian mix also very anti P.C. Not religious at all, I just tire of seeing people complain about xmas trees and xmas.

I like them because they're asthetically pleasing and are a needee break from the monotony of everyday during the rest of the year. Some how a giant candle holder just doesn't do it for me in the same way.

I know the rabbi didn't mean for them to take it down, but wtf did he expect given the constant complaints against xmas trees etc, even though at this point as italian said, it's completely commercial and hardly religious anymore.

I got that off drudge report, which granted, is right bias, but better than watching cnn or fox.

Italian Jew
04-10-2008, 11:41 PM
Anybody know what happened to Festivus?

Slavic
04-11-2008, 02:01 AM
I wouldn't mind muslims being free to practice etc at school IF other religions (Mainly Christianity) weren't so ostracized. Either you let EVERYONE put up christmas trees, menorahs, statues of Buddha, Pictures of Mohammed, scratch that last one, etc etc.

But to go after Christians/Catholics for displaying their beliefs, then in turn giving other religions a free pass really pisses me off.

Either all or nothing.

*Note: I'm agnostic, think organized religion is silly, but think it should be people's right to practice it all equally, not put one above another.

Umm what schools are you talking about that are disenfranchising the Christians? All of the schools i've been too, Elementary-High school has always shown religious displays, mostly Christian and Jewish. We have always had in school Christmas/Jewish celebrations and decorations all over.

If certain religious rituals needed to be practiced during school hours, them private permissions were taken into account as to not disrupt other school activities. I think the people there are getting worked up because the practices done in the school are majority Muslim. The Christian population in my school has always been allowed to perform certain Christian practices, praying and whatnot, and so have the minority Muslim population. I bet though if my community had a large influx of Muslim students, the Christians would be concerned about the Muslim practices, although they are doing the same thing themselves.

Slavic
04-11-2008, 07:35 AM
Does this mean my Pagan School will be closing soon? Once I pass my exams I'll become a fully-qualified druid.

:wink:

Seriously, though, I'll never really understand the whole flag/mega-patriotic lifestyle you guys live in. But, then, I do find American Dad funny, so I guess that means I'm just ignorant. *shrug* :sad:

I was seriously thinking about going to England to major in Herbalistic Studies at a time

Repeat
04-11-2008, 09:07 AM
Anybody know what happened to Festivus?

A Festivus for the rest of us!

...Feats of Strength, anyone?

Italian Jew
04-11-2008, 10:25 AM
http://www.lilith-ezine.com/articles/religion/images/Festivus-01.jpg

word!

Red
04-11-2008, 10:31 AM
Seriously, though, I'll never really understand the whole flag/mega-patriotic lifestyle you guys live in. But, then, I do find American Dad funny, so I guess that means I'm just ignorant. *shrug* :sad:

You wouldn't, national pride and patriotism seem to be taboo amongst much of the younger population. I don't understand the surge in people pissing on the notion of patriotism, other than it's trendy along with other Michael Moore pursuits.

I'm not embarrassed or ashamed to be American. If you don't feel the same feelings for your home, that's your deal.

If they're taking money from the American Tax payer, then I see no reason why not to fly the stars and stripes.

Italian Jew
04-11-2008, 10:33 AM
Its not a taboo, just that too much patriotism is a bad thing. Turns into nationalism...world wars break out...the youthful generation is not the bunch of hippies you make them out to be.

Red
04-11-2008, 10:53 AM
I said MUCH of the younger population. Not all.

Italian Jew
04-11-2008, 11:03 AM
the one's that are the non-conformists, or the ones that hate the left because it is the new thing?

From what I see where I am at, the college kids are split more on the liberal side (obviously), but for good reasons on their part. The more conservative people have their reasons, but the only people I would worry about are the uber religious right people, and the wannabe hippy leftists who play their bongo drums on the side of the road.

LegalSmash
04-11-2008, 12:06 PM
I actually agree with Red here. Its basically become trendy to be "anti patriotic", especially among the affluent. Which often makes me laugh and generally disdain them, because they tend to benefit from our system most of all.

Italian Jew
04-11-2008, 05:02 PM
Its not that anti-patriotic, its just that there is difference between the local redneck who dresses in everything Red, White, and Blue and says all Muslims are bad, Jesus is the way, and everyone who disagrees is unamerican opposed to the normal person who flies their flag everyday because they feel like it. Patriotism isn't flying the flag, it is believing in what the flag stands for and defending it. Forcing someone to fly a flag is strongly against what this country was founded upon, not to mention forcing ideals or anything down somebody's throat. Much of the youth became alienated from what patriotism really is because during the cold war, that got screwed up. They are just looking at an extreme form of what is mistaken as patriotism, which they shouldn't, and use it as reason to say patriotism is bad.

Don't think I have ever seen somebody against true patriotism.

LegalSmash
04-11-2008, 05:43 PM
Forcing someone to fly a flag is strongly against what this country was founded upon, not to mention forcing ideals or anything down somebody's throat.

Except when state funds are contingent on your maintaining a certain decorum, of which the state and federal colors being on the post outside the location.

No one is forcing them to do anything other than to identify themselves as a federally funded/state funded building. That is it.

And as for shoving ideals or anything down someones throats, the muslims, fundamental christians, and "I-am -not-an-american-or-legal-but-your-evil-if-you-deport-me crowd do a pretty good job of doing that on a regular basis, just look at france, the state of minnesota, england, ANY "Christian" sector in the middle east, and that lovely cartoon fiasco a couple years back.

"put your flag up because you take state money and its required, or stop taking state funds and do WTF you want"

is quite different from

"your political cartoon commenting on my "alleged" angry and explosive (literally) nature is offending my imaginary avenger, therefore, I shall riot, burn shit, and threaten death upon you until you decide to stop out of fear of retribution."

or

"It may be your body, but that omelet in it is a fully functioning person that may one day be useful for some purpose in the wal-mart or in the infantry, therefore you shall keep it, and if you dont I shall harass you and firebomb thy doctor's office."

or

"I shall not be forced to adopt your language, despite living in your country, using public welfare money though frequent hospital visits for colds, but you WILL speak mine, because I am not compelled through any force of law to show allegiance, learn the culture, or attempt to accommodate myself, and you dont have the balls to pass a law to say otherwise".


The first is a reasonable request. The rest are threats, or encroachments that have been allowed due to the apologist "guilt" culture that has gripped this country's most effective voting block: Middle class white american women/men with children.

If they dont want these sorts of problems, stop worrying about timmy's ADD and go pay attention to WTF is going on around them.

Italian Jew
04-11-2008, 05:51 PM
I am not saying that flying the flag outside of the building is forceful. Meant those people who think you have to because this is america, not that the building is a gov't building or what have you, sorry for that. : P

The problem with the allah cartoon is that it is forbidden in Islam to produce images of him in ANY way. That violated one of their foundations of their religion, so they have a right to be upset, but not to the level where they burn stuff and become violent because Islam does not preach that at all.

As for learning Spanish... the people who come to this country should know enough english to get by. We should not have to learn their language. What you say makes them seem like they could not care less. Do you honestly think someone who comes to America and does not know english has a good time trying to understand and be understood? Many people have a tough time learning a second language, especially if they are too old. You can offer classes for english as a second language, which they do in a lot of places, but if you want them to learn well enough english, then America needs to up the funding and devise ways in which they take the classes before they enter the country to seek residence.

LegalSmash
04-11-2008, 06:06 PM
Jew,

Im cuban, From Miami, A 1st Gen American (my mom and dad are immigrants). I am intimately familiar with the difficulties and annoyances of english learning. I also know that free classes were and are offered by religious groups, community centers, colleges, high school after hours programs and private individuals. this is what liberal hispanics do... try to better their community. The thing is, no one here REQUIRES the persons in question to learn. THAT is the problem.

America doesnt need to fund English classes for others, people need to stop anchor babying and coming illegally. Period.

If I went to Brazil, no one is going to give me a free ride to learn to say shit. I picked it up on my own. I speak 5 languages, how the fuck cant they master 1 correctly (many of them have just as bad Spanish).

Its not "oh poor them" its they are not required to do it. I have an uncle, here 18 years (came in 1990 on an inflatable raft) still doesnt speak a lick of english, because no one made him... another uncle, came in 1996, on a raft, worked nights, lived in a co-op essentially, took free classes at a catholic church in Little Havana, got a job, married, and got his citizenship.

Its a matter of pride for some. Others have none, or care not for being "american" just getting the perks.

If its not going to be a matter of pride, my friend, then my hispanic brethren need to feel the whip of the law. Learn the language, migrate legally, or gtfo.

It makes the rest of us that work hard, bust ass, work several jobs, dont have kids till we are ready and seek to better ourselves and our family names look bad.

Also, if its going to get whipped out "cubans have preferential treatment.. .meh meh" no... There are lots that take advantage of that to our detriment, but many of us have pride enough to know its shameful to live in a country, use its resources, and not even bother to speak the damn language, we still remember the fact that america DOESNT have to keep us here, or take us. It seems to be many national groups in my ethnic forget this, and it makes me livid.

Currently, aside from asians, we are the most educated minority, about 39% of us with a college degree, and in many cases, have higher median earning than whites of similar education.
This is in a state that has no educational assistance like California does. Florida is a hard place to fuck up financially as a private citizen (if you are a corporation, you are golden though)

Cali essentially GIVES you the education through several different plans. Perhaps litkey can elaborate here re higher education credits and payment there.

Italian Jew
04-11-2008, 06:18 PM
I am not saying the illegal ones, I am saying if they want to come here legally, they need to be prepared. If they are seeking residence, then why can they not pay a tax for being offered an english class?

Scientifically, it is harder for adults to learn second languages than children because children are born with an open mind of sorts, in that they take in whatever they see, hear, taste, etc. For an adult, it takes a lot of studying no matter how smart you are to successfully learn another language. One would also need money to buy some sort of learning material if they were not to receive lessons, so your avg. hispanic will need to a lot of their time to learn the language. They hold jobs which prevent this being done easily because they need the job to support themselves and possibly family. There not as well off as you were most of the time.

Red
04-11-2008, 06:28 PM
There not as well off as you were most of the time.


ROFL, Legal grew up in hialeah (read: GHETTO)

Italian Jew
04-11-2008, 07:18 PM
EDIT: double posted somehow

Italian Jew
04-11-2008, 07:19 PM
Was talking about churches, community centers, etc. where they were taught english. I don't think Legal took it upon himself to learn english just by listening to people talk. He had help somewhere; others have no opportunity for help.

LegalSmash
04-11-2008, 07:41 PM
Not Hialeah, A place called Goulds, its like opa-locka, but more shady and further south.

No, I was fortunate enough to be born here, and appreciate it, unlike some of these other folks' gangbanging youth.

As for the availability of aid, you had to look for it, and it IS available. Its a matter of looking for it. No immigrant group has had it easy, you have to help yourself. It used to be there was impetus to do so jew, that is the thing, they arent spurned or expected to anymore.

They need to help themselves, and we the actual people of the US need to make them pick it up or pick up.

Italian Jew
04-11-2008, 07:53 PM
Well, if they don't something like this already, they can have programs in Mexico or whatever country the immigrants are from, that teach english and help with becoming a legal citizen of the U.S. The person would have to pay for it, whether it be through an immediate payment or through some form of eventual tax on them once they become a citizen.

They just aren't going to help themselves because they ought to. I figure if they decide they want to come in a do jobs that others do not want to do and they do so LEGALLY, then that would help out the nation.

Would need to find a way to encourage them to look for the help they need in English though. Don't have a clue as to what because everything the U.S. has done, if they have done anything, has not really worked.

Slavic
04-11-2008, 10:39 PM
There are programs and schools for English as a second language. If non-English speakers don't want to learn English while living in America, I wish them the best of luck finding a job. Its up to the people immigrating in to learn the language of the market here. My grandparents came to America during the 40's and 50's and didn't know a single word of English, yet they struggled and managed to form a solid economical base. Its do or die in this market.

Italian Jew
04-12-2008, 12:31 AM
Well, I say if it is a public school, it should be mandatory. They need to know the language because they are hurting everyone by not learning it.

LegalSmash
04-12-2008, 02:37 AM
They do have those programs jew, ESOL

Italian Jew
04-12-2008, 11:40 AM
They aren't mandatory though in all areas, and if they are, the requirements for passing are nothing. When they taught it at my high school, the latino kids could not speak it well at all. It is taught the same way as high school spanish, german, latin, etc. and you know how some people just take those classes and never retain the language. Very few people actually take those languages to learn a new language. Most people just take them because they are required. ESL is only effective if you begin to take it in Elementary school (don't know if they have it, but I would think they would).

If you don't know enough english, you can take the SOL's (in VA) with a translator. By now they might have a spanish version of the test, but when I was taking them, some kids had the "special" room to take the test in with translators.

Jager
04-12-2008, 04:01 PM
the US as a whole should have done what most countries did and passed a law in the 1950s setting a national language. without one we have no backbone to set laws on. ESL may be a joke in your area jew but in mine most people who speak spanish also speak english well enough. and im 2 hours from you. I speak basic spanish as well as german and a few words in russian italian french and some other languages, I started learning them all in middle school or later, so it can be done, its just that i tend to see that the most outspoken groups for or against the issue claim their culture or heritage would be destroyeed or weakened.

i disagree, if half the worlds businesses and most of the worlds countries teach english as a second language (japanese and german businessmen tend to have better english then most americans or brits) then anyone else can do it, its simply a lack of determination or being lazy.

i think offering a subsidy to offset the hours missed working by learning english would not be a bad way to do it. While not ideal, then it removes all pretense of the cant go im working too busy etc part and people knopwing that their learning is contingent on being paid would actually learn.

food for thought.

Italian Jew
04-12-2008, 04:14 PM
Well enough for McDonalds or well enough to get by in the business world? ESL in northern VA is a joke, as it is in the Mid west in some places where I know people. I would think places where there is a large population of latinos would have a good ESL program, so places like in Texas or L.A.

The problem with other countries being good at teaching ESL is that those people who learn are either businessmen who travel to english-speaking nations a lot, or they are more educationally advanced. They are determined to learn, they just need the resources to do so before they begin to settle down in a way where they think they are well enough off.

Yes we need the official language because we pretend we don't have one, but we do. Their culture is not going to be harmed in any way. If they love their culture so much, why did they leave their country in the first place?

Slavic
04-12-2008, 09:21 PM
dude highschool ESL won't teach you proper English why? Because it is HIGHSCHOOL. Off course a high school ESL course will only prepare you for a job at a McDonalds, because thats what you get with a high school degree. The businessmen who are good at English took ESL at college, which is offered at almost all colleges.

The resources are there for them to learn, if they don't want to, sucks for them. I have met several immigrants, some of which i've worked with, that recently moved to America but speak good english. Its a matter on the individual level, because the room for improvement is all there.

LegalSmash
04-12-2008, 09:36 PM
^^ its a joke bc those areas are not populated heavily with hispanics. These areas should not subject their taxpayers to needless expense for a very small minority, which most of the time doesnt or cannot vote.

They need to go to Miami, Tx, AZ, or other areas where there IS support for them. That is not an option if they want "help". The problem is that those same areas are the ones that allow for exacerbation of the problem... no need to learn engleech if erryonnne sppeekee.

Italian Jew
04-12-2008, 09:47 PM
where there some white americans who could take some lessons in the language...crazy people making up words and grammar rules...