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LitKey
01-31-2008, 06:58 PM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AFGHAN_JOURNALIST_DEATH_PENALTY?SITE=SCAND&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


KABUL, Afghanistan — Afghanistan's upper house of parliament lauded the death sentence handed down against a local journalist who was found guilty of insulting Islam, an official said Wednesday.

In a statement signed by Sibghatullah Mojaddedi, the chamber's chairman, the Senate also condemned what it called "international interference" to have the sentence annulled, spokesman Aminuddin Muzafari said Wednesday.

The journalist, 23-year-old Sayed Parwez Kaambakhsh, was sentenced to death last week by a three-judge panel in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif for distributing a report he printed off the Internet to journalism students at Balkh University.

The article asked why men can have four wives but women can't have multiple husbands.

The court in Mazar-i-Sharif found that the article humiliated Islam. Members of a clerical council also pushed for Kaambakhsh to be punished.

"That issue was not in the (Senate's) agenda, but when lawmakers gathered on Tuesday they insisted on talking about that case," Muzafari said.

Following a debate, lawmakers decided to issue the statement supporting the court's decision, he said.

Kaambakhsh has appealed his conviction and the case will now go to an appeals court. President Hamid Karzai will have the final say in the matter.

International human rights groups have condemned the sentence and called on Afghan authorities to quash it.

What a load of shit. Karzai better repeal his death sentence.

FreeFuze
01-31-2008, 07:04 PM
I think that Islam is the most unfair of the religions. Seriously, they treat women like objects. What the fuck!

LitKey
01-31-2008, 07:37 PM
I think that Islam is the most unfair of the religions. Seriously, they treat women like objects. What the fuck!

If you're a Muslim woman and you voice your opinion about it publicly, you become the victim of an "honor killing" in countries like Somalia and Iran. Now even in western countries such as Denmark where the Muhammed cartoons were originally published, you will be put on a hit list and murdered if you say anything that criticizes Islam. The original cartoonists of the Muhammed cartoons are currently still in hiding because they are being hunted by murderous extremists.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran said when he spoke at Columbia University, "In Iran, we don't have homosexuals like in your country [the USA]." Obviously that's not true because it is impossible for there to be no homosexuals in a country with a population of about 70.5 million, but he said that because if you are a homosexual in that country and your sexuality is found out, you will be flat out murdered.

Zero001
01-31-2008, 07:57 PM
It is a load of shit. This is why religion and government should never mix.

This however, brings up the question "Should the U.S and the rest of the world become involved?" It obviously goes against our morals, but should we try and force the rest of the world to think and act like us? Thoughts of WWII and Hitler come to mind, but this is a religious situation that's been happening in these countries for years.

phatman76
01-31-2008, 09:02 PM
It is a load of shit. This is why religion and government should never mix.

This however, brings up the question "Should the U.S and the rest of the world become involved?" It obviously goes against our morals, but should we try and force the rest of the world to think and act like us? Thoughts of WWII and Hitler come to mind, but this is a religious situation that's been happening in these countries for years.

Zero, we should never get involved, that is until their religion comes tearing through buildings in the cockpits of jet planes, blasting through subway tunnels, and cutting through buses on the backs of suicide bombers. Is it right for the west to hold down this part of the world and force it to civilize? No, the free market would do that anyways as we see happening in places like Dubai. It is not right for us to intervene, but it is necessary. Military intervention is indeed warranted the second they take their religion to us in force. Hitler wanted absolute power and control, and the Islamic extremists are more like him than we.

Slavic
01-31-2008, 10:20 PM
For the sack of proper knowledge and integrity please do not take this as the practice for Islam as a whole. I'm sure you all know that Iran's state religion is a warped version of Islam, please don't bash a religion because a few idiots are giving it a bad name. Thank you.

Honestly, the reporter should know better. Yes I believe the sentence is barbarism, but, especially a reporter, should become acquainted with he laws of the country they are in. What he did was quite foolish and the response he got was expected. He should know the basics of the law of the country he is in, ESPECIALLY if it is Iran.

We should not intervene at all. This is not an international issue. Some countries just have stricter laws then others, that doesn't justify a large scale intervention. I mean hell, some countries have death penalties for drunk driving, but you don't see the US getting worked up about that.

Also in regards to polygamy in Islam, if the reporter even bothered to read the Qur'an he would know exactly why this certain type of polygamy is allowed. And for the record, I believe that Islamic polygamy is not a bad thing.

broncoty
01-31-2008, 10:26 PM
For the sack of proper knowledge and integrity please do not take this as the practice for Islam as a whole. I'm sure you all know that Iran's state religion is a warped version of Islam, please don't bash a religion because a few idiots are giving it a bad name. Thank you.


Yes a few idiots give it a bad name, but the rest sit back and watch it happen which is just as bad in my mind as pulling the trigger itself

Slavic
01-31-2008, 10:30 PM
Yes a few idiots give it a bad name, but the rest sit back and let it happen which is just as bad in my mind as pulling the trigger itself

And what of the radical Jews and Christians. Currently there is a bloody war going on right now in Africa trying to enforce the original ten commandments to make a proper Jewish country. Not to mention the countless Christian bigots who spew filth from their mouths. What sickens me is that I've heard that a good deal of soldiers in Iraq believe that they are helping spread Christianity to the Iraqis. And by heard, I mean i have two family members serving who know first hand.

Omega
01-31-2008, 10:31 PM
wouldn't be the first time











PS: all organized religion promotes violence

broncoty
01-31-2008, 10:33 PM
And what of the radical Jews and Christians. Currently there is a bloody war going on right now in Africa trying to enforce the original ten commandments to make a proper Jewish country. Not to mention the countless Christian bigots who spew filth from their mouths. What sickens me is that I've heard that a good deal of soldiers in Iraq believe that they are helping spread Christianity to the Iraqis. And by heard, I mean i have two family members serving who know first hand.

The radical Jews and Christians are not flying planes into american skyscrapers, or blowing up american soldiers are they?

LitKey
01-31-2008, 11:15 PM
Honestly, the reporter should know better. Yes I believe the sentence is barbarism, but, especially a reporter, should become acquainted with he laws of the country they are in. What he did was quite foolish and the response he got was expected. He should know the basics of the law of the country he is in, ESPECIALLY if it is Iran.

This was an Afghani reporter in Afghanistan, handing out articles to students at a university in Afghanistan raising the question of why men are allowed to have multiple wives in Islam but women cannot. If free speech is against the law in Afghanistan, then he is a brave man for giving people new ideas about Islam, rather than listening to all the bullshit radicals spit out on al-Jazeera.




I mean hell, some countries have death penalties for drunk driving, but you don't see the US getting worked up about that.

There's a difference between drunk driving and handing out pamphlets criticizing Islam (although death sentences for drunk driving, if that is true? far too extreme.). Drunk driving kills people. Handing out pamphlets about an issue that should be raised, especially in MUSLIM countries, does not.


Also in regards to polygamy in Islam, if the reporter even bothered to read the Qur'an he would know exactly why this certain type of polygamy is allowed. And for the record, I believe that Islamic polygamy is not a bad thing.

Again, the reporter was Afghani and lived there... people have to practically MEMORIZE the Koran over there, so I'm sure he read it and knows "why" it is allowed in Islam. The point is that he was trying to spread the word and point out how bad the treatment of women is, which as I said before is an issue that ought to be raised.

Slavic
02-01-2008, 12:04 AM
My bad for some reason I thought I read that it was a UK reporter, I don't know why I did lolz.

Slavic
02-01-2008, 12:05 AM
The radical Jews and Christians are not flying planes into american skyscrapers, or blowing up american soldiers are they?

Your right, they are not blowing up Americans, they are blowing up Palestinians and Africans.

MANFRA
02-01-2008, 08:44 AM
Maybe if our government (U.S.) just minded our own business, everyone wouldn't hate us so much. I believe in the Ron Paul platform. We leave everyone alone and instead just trade with them, they will leave us alone and trade with us. Ask yourself something.. why does most countries on this planet hate Americans? It's because we are in alot of countries bullying them! The United States was well liked pre WWII because we kept to ourselves. We should go back to those days.

Zero001
02-01-2008, 10:37 AM
I have no problem with moving out of the middle east, and the current conflict with Iraq. I think that Ron Paul is right in that sense, but he takes it too far when he says he wants to bring back the entire military. This is were people who read and watch less videos start to think he's crazy. This isn't the U.S of old and I think phatman76 said it, but a U.S presence and intervention is required in many areas. Honestly, what does Ron Paul expect to do when he takes down over 700 established bases around the world? We shouldn't have the entire military on border patrol. Not everything the U.S military does is considered bullying.

Itch
02-01-2008, 10:45 AM
I have no problem with moving out of the middle east, and the current conflict with Iraq. I think that Ron Paul is right in that sense, but he takes it too far when he says he wants to bring back the entire military. This is were people who read and watch less videos start to think he's crazy. This isn't the U.S of old and I think phatman76 said it, but a U.S presence and intervention is required in many areas. Honestly, what does Ron Paul expect to do when he takes down over 700 established bases around the world? We shouldn't have the entire military on border patrol. Not everything the U.S military does is considered bullying.

Agree 100%

Red
02-01-2008, 11:12 AM
Sorry but I can't respect the stoning to death of women, or other general death sentences imposed on women for being unfaithful. Or punishing an underage girl who was raped, who was the victim.

It's beyond harsh, it's barbaric.

phatman76
02-01-2008, 11:24 AM
Maybe if our government (U.S.) just minded our own business, everyone wouldn't hate us so much. I believe in the Ron Paul platform. We leave everyone alone and instead just trade with them, they will leave us alone and trade with us. Ask yourself something.. why does most countries on this planet hate Americans? It's because we are in alot of countries bullying them! The United States was well liked pre WWII because we kept to ourselves. We should go back to those days.

That's whats wrong with Paul. What makes this country great is change, adaptability, hiding within our borders will just cause the USA to stagnate. Just because Paul is willing to give a big F U to the way we do things now doesn't mean it's right we go back to our old status as a second rate power. The USA was well liked pre-WWII because we were weaker then, just like the British in the 17th century, the USA took the mantle of leadership after the war. We can't give that up so easily.

Red
02-01-2008, 12:21 PM
Heavy is the head that wears the crown

Omega
02-01-2008, 01:35 PM
That's whats wrong with Paul. What makes this country great is change, adaptability, hiding within our borders will just cause the USA to stagnate. Just because Paul is willing to give a big F U to the way we do things now doesn't mean it's right we go back to our old status as a second rate power. The USA was well liked pre-WWII because we were weaker then, just like the British in the 17th century, the USA took the mantle of leadership after the war. We can't give that up so easily.

I agree with phatman, sort of. Once you're engaged in a country such as Iraq, pulling out 100% of the troops is not such a great idea. Regional conflicts would follow almost immediately, worsen America's image and inspire al Qaeda and other terror groups, as they would see it as a victory.

I don't necessarily support the war in Iraq, but we're in too deep. The mistake was going in to begin with.

Zero001
02-01-2008, 02:57 PM
Lots of Middle Eastern countries have harsh laws and punishments. It's a point of perspective. I mean, to me, the American execution sentence seems harsh, as we don't have it over here anymore. Still, I respect the laws.

This is where I have to bring up the term "the island". There are a number of states that do not practice the death penalty, so generalizing America in that matter is wrong. Like Red said, what they do is "beyond harsh, it's barbaric."

Pancake Batter
02-02-2008, 07:07 AM
It's like when people think because some tribes in the Amazon wear those sticks through their nose, or those plates in their mouth, they think they are inferior or odd.

How do you compare that to putting someone to death just because they have different views?

LitKey
02-02-2008, 10:15 AM
And nobody finds that racist? It's their culture and their laws. Nobody has the right to take a prejudice attitude to it unless you actually live there. Just remember, it's a PUNISHMENT for a LAW -- which means someone has to break said law to receive the punishment.

It's like when people think because some tribes in the Amazon wear those sticks through their nose, or those plates in their mouth, they think they are inferior or odd.

It's prejudice when someone comments on the barbaric nature of the "punishment" which is not deserved in this case? Cut the bullshit.

Slavic
02-02-2008, 11:04 AM
It's prejudice when someone comments on the barbaric nature of the "punishment" which is not deserved in this case? Cut the bullshit.

What justifies your perspective on ethics and law to be correct? Or even the Afghan's perspective on their own ethics and law. Yes this seems cruel and barbaric to most westerns because most the people living in the rest see this as wrong.

To the Afghan people this set of ethics make perfect sense, because they were raised thinking that. What makes your set of ethics or the Afghan set of ethics better than the other. I believe that this is what havoc was trying to get across. There are things that Americans do in their own culture that I'm sure the Afghans would think was barbaric. Abortion, reliance on material goods, worship of celebrities, over indulgences, etc.

Zero001
02-02-2008, 11:34 AM
There are things that Americans do in their own culture that I'm sure the Afghans would think was barbaric. Abortion, reliance on material goods, worship of celebrities, over indulgences, etc.

Last time I checked they practiced those things just in a different manner. Also, generalizing the practice of those things amongst Americans is wrong.

Omega
02-02-2008, 11:40 AM
What justifies your perspective on ethics and law to be correct? Or even the Afghan's perspective on their own ethics and law. Yes this seems cruel and barbaric to most westerns because most the people living in the rest see this as wrong.

To the Afghan people this set of ethics make perfect sense, because they were raised thinking that. What makes your set of ethics or the Afghan set of ethics better than the other. I believe that this is what havoc was trying to get across. There are things that Americans do in their own culture that I'm sure the Afghans would think was barbaric. Abortion, reliance on material goods, worship of celebrities, over indulgences, etc.

QFT slavic.. QtothemfkingT.

What makes one's ideals correct? What gives you the right to say "you should completely drop everything you believe in and do things our way from now on?" Yeah, people die unjustly from stoning and all the other "nonsense" that goes on in the middle east, but how many more people do you think are going to die and did die when we intervened? What makes you guys the boss of the world and say what is right and what is wrong? America is far from a utopia itself...

Omega
02-02-2008, 11:41 AM
Last time I checked they practiced those things just in a different manner. Also, generalizing the practice of those things amongst Americans is wrong.

Yeah, thank Western culture for that.

Zero001
02-02-2008, 12:12 PM
Organized religion is a bad idea. Even you guys can agree with that, but nooooo. It's so wrong when we stand up against something even you think is wrong, but it's ok for you guys to bash on us because it's their "beliefs". Logic & reason are far greater tools for improvement than some outdated tradition. I'm not condoning a war or a forceful change in that part of the world. I'm simply stating that I think it's wrong. It's why I brought up the topic of Hitler and WWII earlier. A lot of Germans believed he was right, so was it ok for us to sit back and watch people die because it was their "beliefs"? I mean come on, are we so ignorant for wanting to stop the slaughter of innocent people? The U.S is far from a "utopia", and again no one has brought up something that ignorant.

Veggie
02-02-2008, 12:25 PM
"Yes a few idiots give it a bad name, but the rest sit back and watch it happen which is just as bad in my mind as pulling the trigger itself"

http://www.anth.uconn.edu/faculty/handwerker/Books/Chapter%201.pdf



After the bombing levy's mother spoke (Lives in Israel) with Ayat's mother (Lives in Palestine) over a satellite tv and asked them to set a example by saying this is not the way to solve problems and that killing is never the way to do it, to express this to the Palestine community. Ayat's parents said well we are under persecution, we live in a military compound, we cannot go freely in to Israel etc. So what are we to do? nothing?


Rachel Levy died when Ayat al-Akhras detonated the bomb wrapped around her body.
The fact that both girls were about the same age (17, 18) captured media attention for a day or two.
Less interesting was that the bomb that Ayat set off in Jerusalem’s Kiryat Yovel supermarket also
killed the guard who stopped her near the door, and wounded 28 other shoppers.


They aired the meeting of the familys on hbo not long ago and should be on again so look for it, gives a real deep look in to what is happening.

Rachel Levy

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w147/Jammerfl/RachelLevy.jpg

Ayat

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w147/Jammerfl/ayat.jpg

Short video from the documentary:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IfsUPPJ1D_g

Omega
02-02-2008, 12:32 PM
I'm not condoning a war or a forceful change in that part of the world. I'm simply stating that I think it's wrong.

So you believe that organized religion in the middle east is wrong and it should be eliminated, yet you don't want to do it forcefully.


Wait, what?

Zero001
02-02-2008, 12:36 PM
So you believe that organized religion in the middle east is wrong and it should be eliminated, yet you don't want to do it forcefully.


Wait, what?

There are other options, so yeah. I think exposing people to something different, something more logical & reasonable, is enough to change them. It may not happen over night, but it's a better option. How is that so hard to believe?

They're already trying to change themselves.

Omega
02-02-2008, 12:44 PM
There are other options, so yeah. I think exposing people to something different, something more logical & reasonable, is enough to change them. It may not happen over night, but it's a better option. How is that so hard to believe?

Name me one instance in the history of mankind where this has worked without a violent uprising.

Also, please keep in mind that it's radical Islam we're talking about.... how well do you figure that these "barbarians" are going to listen to you preaching everything that they're against? You obviously have no idea just how much these people are tied to their religion.

Zero001
02-02-2008, 12:55 PM
Name me one instance in the history of mankind where this has worked without a violent uprising.

Also, please keep in mind that it's radical Islam we're talking about.... how well do you figure that these "barbarians" are going to listen to you preaching everything that they're against? You obviously have no idea just how much these people are tied to their religion.

I'm not asking them to listen to me, they can do it themselves. The article that started this whole thing is just an example. I'm sure there's a growing number of others just like the author. You're right about the violent uprising, but the pieces are in place for them to handle things with as little outside help as possible. I don't have a problem with their entire religion, a lot of it preaches good things, but the violent practices have got to stop.

LegalSmash
02-05-2008, 03:30 PM
There are quite a few authors that speak out against the extremism, but the friendly, tent-neighborhood radical imam condemn them and threaten them with death, or tell the "believers" that if they go along with the opinion of this person, they will burn in hell/die/aren't really Muslims. With that sort of a cycle, it is difficult to get any real movement towards secularism in certain places, because the imam's that say this have the power or word which is treated like law.

The african woman who lives in denmark (I forget her name, but she is Somali), has an armed guard with her 24/7 because she spoke out against the Anti-Women's Rights (human and civil) stance in conservative/radical Islamic states.

In non-Islamic country, the interest groups related to Islam (CAIR among them) abuse process of law by filing and suing for defamation/Hate Speech SLAAP Suits to prevent other individuals in the community, private and at large, from exercising their civil rights (Speech, press, assembly, and in some cases religion). There is a lawyer in Canada that was hauled in front of a paper tribunal to answer for PUBLISHING A CARTOON (a right guaranteed to ALL citizens by the Canadian Charter of Freedoms), in Denmark a similar incident happened, followed by worldwide protests, rioting, and looting... Here in the US, these instances occur as well, but our judges have the good sense to dismiss the majority of these baseless cases. Rather, here there have been attempts to avoid face photographs for licenses under the guise of "the peaceful religion".

My beef with this is that it is not only irrational, but forces the accomodation of their thing upon everyone else, but no offer, allowance or otherwise inroads to yield to the customs of the host culture.

This is a disconcerting problem, which makes me truly wonder if it is possible to negotiate with this visible section of the whole group, or for that matter, the remainder of the group that are still fervently tied to these individuals through their mutual belief.

Red
02-05-2008, 03:35 PM
It is possible to negotiate with the extremists.











Via the end of a barrel

LegalSmash
02-05-2008, 03:50 PM
Or a waterboard

LitKey
02-05-2008, 05:55 PM
Or a waterboard

I like your friend Red

LegalSmash
02-05-2008, 06:14 PM
Nice to meet ya too. lol.

I really think that the best way to stop the spread of this obvious nuisance of extremism is to REALLY enforce our own establishment clause. Prevent ALL shows of faith in the workplace, and in the goverment paid for public... do not allow for religious groups to have free access to government space, do not allow little jew hats, muslim head scarves, Christian crosses, etc. in these places (most religious organizations are not only tax exempt, but get tithe that STARTS at 5% from their parishioners/people that follow it)

If the nation requires for the person to leave their religion as a PERSONAL thing. which is what is was supposed to be from the beginning, not a "let me force you into this" thing.

This will eliminate a vast majority of the problems we suffer due to organized religion.

Slavic
02-05-2008, 09:12 PM
You will have a few problems with that. You can't just throw a policy blanket like that across all religions, some just won't get covered all the way.

I know for example that the Qur'an pushes for a more communal effort than an individual one. Mind you what the Qur'an says about communal religion is usually highly distorted by many Islamic Leaders. In the Qur'an it is even stated multiple times about how to care for non-believers, Christians, and Jews in your community. They are basically to be treated as civilians, they are required to play a slightly higher tax but this is offset by them not having to participate in wars. You NEVER see this being preached or practiced in the Fundamental Islamic communities.

You policy is similar to the one in France, and France is already having problems with it in the south because many Muslims do not want to have those restrictions on them.

A little unknown fact to most Westerners, the Jihads that the extremists are calling out are not, how may I say, "legal" following Qur'anic teachings. Jihad shall only be used when one is being forced to not practice their religion freely. The Jihads in Iraq are anti-Islamic, the Muslims there can and still practice their religion fully. Although the policy that France has and the one you are working up lays the groundwork for a "legal" jihad.

phatman76
02-06-2008, 12:23 AM
It is not racist or stereotypical to call radical Muslim extremism a direct product of Islam. The Quran advocates in quite clear language to destroy non-muslims, and that it is not a sin to do so.

I don't care what your morals are, I don't care about your social views. I couldn't give more than a damn about Islam or any other religion except mine. However, when Muslims using the cover of their religion to launch a jihad, a literal war of religious terror and death, they need to be stopped. I don't care if it means bombing the entire middle east back to the stone age, when they threaten a single citizen of a democratic nation, there should be instant and overwhelming retaliation.

It is not a crime in those seemingly backward countries to kill an adulteress or a blasphemer, but it isn't a crime in our countries either to kill those extremists when they threaten us. Quit the double standard. If all of their laws must be "accepted" because they are from a "different culture," ours hold just as much authority. Q.E.D. it would not be a crime of racism to criticize their actions and it would not be an atrocity to stop them or even destroy them for threatening us or anyone we deem needing of our protection.

LegalSmash
02-06-2008, 12:46 AM
Qfmft

Slavic
02-06-2008, 12:42 PM
It is not racist or stereotypical to call radical Muslim extremism a direct product of Islam. The Qu'ran advocates in quite clear language to destroy non-muslims, and that it is not a sin to do so.

Please actually read the Qur'an when you make that statement, you sound just like a televangelist. I am sorry but until you yourself read the Qu'ran I will not respect your connection between the Qu'ran "advocating" to destroy non-muslims.

I do think that it is horrible that Islamic extremists advocate violence and are ironically blasphemizing their own religion. But the tactics you propose to handle the situation seems to throw all Muslims under the same banner. Islam is one of the largest religions in the world, only a small few are advocating violence and jihads. What should be done about it, should be how we are handling the war in Afghanistan. We are using small scale tactics to uproot the few extremists in the area. Your "bombing" of the Middle East seems to be a very violent and intolerant one.

I consider myself to be a Muslim and I advocated true jihad as defined in the Qu'ran. Am I an extremist Phatman???

Red
02-06-2008, 01:35 PM
Consider yourself to be a Muslim?

Is that like Madonna "Considering" herself to be a Jew?

phatman76
02-06-2008, 01:53 PM
Please actually read the Qur'an when you make that statement, you sound just like a televangelist. I am sorry but until you yourself read the Qu'ran I will not respect your connection between the Qu'ran "advocating" to destroy non-muslims.

I do think that it is horrible that Islamic extremists advocate violence and are ironically blasphemizing their own religion. But the tactics you propose to handle the situation seems to throw all Muslims under the same banner. Islam is one of the largest religions in the world, only a small few are advocating violence and jihads. What should be done about it, should be how we are handling the war in Afghanistan. We are using small scale tactics to uproot the few extremists in the area. Your "bombing" of the Middle East seems to be a very violent and intolerant one.

I consider myself to be a Muslim and I advocated true jihad as defined in the Qu'ran. Am I an extremist Phatman???

Out of 57 mostly Islamic countries in the world, five make apostasy from Islam a crime punishable by death: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan and Yemen. According the US State Department, there have been no reports any executions carried out by the government of Saudi Arabia for several years. On the other hand, in Pakistan, vigilante attacks against alleged apostates are common.

The Sharia law and the Fiqh school of thought both agree that if a grown, competent male is an apostate, the correct punishment is death. If a widely accepted interpretation of the Quran advocates killing those who refuse to accept Islam, then there is a problem. If a lot of Muslims really didn't believe in destroying non-believers, don't you think they would try to stop those in their own ranks advocating terrorism? Unfortunately, the entire "peaceful" Islamic world is standing idly by while extremists kill in the name of their God. Many governments of middle eastern countries are basically theocracies, and unless these governments are willing to clamp down on terrorists operating in their borders, it is the duty of the United States and all other free nations to do it for them. I'm not saying we have to bomb all Muslims into the ground for their beliefs, but that we have to defend ourselves against those that would do us harm. Fighting radical Islam has nothing to do with intolerance, but trying to deny what we are fighting: a war generated by radical Islamic fundamentalists and a fundamental interpretation of the Quran itself, is self-denial par insanity.

Red
02-06-2008, 02:02 PM
If a lot of Muslims really didn't believe in destroying non-believers, don't you think they would try to stop those in their own ranks advocating terrorism? Unfortunately, the entire "peaceful" Islamic world is standing idly by while extremists kill in the name of their God.

This is my biggest beef with Muslims who start preaching that their's is a peaceful religion. Until I see mass condemnation by their brethren, every time I hear someone say "It's a religion of peace, we don't advocate violence, read the Q'uran first" it turns into "Wah wah wah wah"

Actions speak louder than words. Especially thousands of Muslims calling for death to cartoonists.

LegalSmash
02-06-2008, 02:26 PM
word.

Slavic
02-06-2008, 08:33 PM
Consider yourself to be a Muslim?

Is that like Madonna "Considering" herself to be a Jew?

I don't understand were you are getting at.

broncoty
02-06-2008, 08:53 PM
Please actually read the Qur'an when you make that statement, you sound just like a televangelist. I am sorry but until you yourself read the Qu'ran I will not respect your connection between the Qu'ran "advocating" to destroy non-muslims.


but it does say go ahead and kill non believers, if you would like i can provide the quotes but then also says do not kill, it is contradictory and can be if literally interpreted taken as permission to kill non muslims

this is because multiple people wrote the koran after the prophets death allowing some of his teachings open to interpretation

what i do know is he is thought to have participated in the killing of some jews, weird for a prophet from god if you ask me

also the reason i have a problem with islam is it denies basic civil rights and the belief that government should not be secular

phatman is right on the ball, if people are going to say we have to honor them they need to honor our beliefs of human rights

broncoty
02-06-2008, 09:00 PM
QFT slavic.. QtothemfkingT.

What makes one's ideals correct? What gives you the right to say "you should completely drop everything you believe in and do things our way from now on?" Yeah, people die unjustly from stoning and all the other "nonsense" that goes on in the middle east, but how many more people do you think are going to die and did die when we intervened? What makes you guys the boss of the world and say what is right and what is wrong? America is far from a utopia itself...

haha i thought basic human rights were a good thing, i think freedom has its price, and i think democracy is the closest thing to utopia

if you can argue it different go for it

veggie, that is a tragic story, but all that shows is what a non secular government can do to basic human rights and free thinking. So two women decided to speak out against it, are they willing to die for it?

Until I see Muslims dying in the name of freedom and liberty in the their streets instead of American soldiers, they are sitting back and supporting the denial of basic human rights and unjust attacks against sovereign nations.

LegalSmash
02-07-2008, 12:06 AM
Yes. This is something that irks me, it seems that their efforts on this "securing the country" entails OUR boys with OUR guns walking around and doing the job because they are not doing it. The sad thing is, that if we WERE to pull out, we'd have another "Fall of Saigon" moment on our hands, because of the sheer incompetence and lack of any real effort from the iraqi military, and for that matter, the muslim community as a whole to decry these "not like our peaceful muslim-y-ness" terrorists, extremists, and religious radicals. The way I see it, they smile at us while we give them MRE's and then go drop them to Urka McDurka (the scotts-catholic-turned-fundamental-muslim-jihadi- because he found out I cant believe its not butter was really butter.) so that he can eat and fire rockets at our guys another day.

and as for the commentary about the COST of the war, its a fraction of a fraction of our obscenely large GDP and budget... The issue is that because it is televised, people get to hear more about it... and get squeamish....

In the Battle of the Bulge, Iwo Jima, Chosin, etc. we lost men by the truckload... thousands, tens of thousands...

We have lost four FOUR 4 thousand people. More people die every year from car related accidents... the number is NOT that big.

What we do need to do, however, is find a way to unfck those iraqis that are supposed to be doing what our soldiers are doing and get them to complete their task and defend/build, etc THEIR country.

broncoty
02-07-2008, 07:13 AM
Yes. This is something that irks me, it seems that their efforts on this "securing the country" entails OUR boys with OUR guns walking around and doing the job because they are not doing it. The sad thing is, that if we WERE to pull out, we'd have another "Fall of Saigon" moment on our hands, because of the sheer incompetence and lack of any real effort from the iraqi military, and for that matter, the muslim community as a whole to decry these "not like our peaceful muslim-y-ness" terrorists, extremists, and religious radicals. The way I see it, they smile at us while we give them MRE's and then go drop them to Urka McDurka (the scotts-catholic-turned-fundamental-muslim-jihadi- because he found out I cant believe its not butter was really butter.) so that he can eat and fire rockets at our guys another day.

and as for the commentary about the COST of the war, its a fraction of a fraction of our obscenely large GDP and budget... The issue is that because it is televised, people get to hear more about it... and get squeamish....

In the Battle of the Bulge, Iwo Jima, Chosin, etc. we lost men by the truckload... thousands, tens of thousands...

We have lost four FOUR 4 thousand people. More people die every year from car related accidents... the number is NOT that big.

What we do need to do, however, is find a way to unfck those iraqis that are supposed to be doing what our soldiers are doing and get them to complete their task and defend/build, etc THEIR country.

Thats the problem we wuld be telling them to forget 1000+ years of history, plus the sunni and the shia't cannot stop killing each other long enough for the U.S to figure out how to accomplish that.

LegalSmash
02-07-2008, 12:10 PM
Thats the problem we wuld be telling them to forget 1000+ years of history, plus the sunni and the shia't cannot stop killing each other long enough for the U.S to figure out how to accomplish that.

Yea... the indians forgot about their 5000+ years of history....

As for the sunni and the shiite, the only way to solve that is let them kill each other off, and one of two things will happen:
1. they figure out its stupid, stop, figure the religion is anachronistic to peace, prosperity, and for that matter, human existence in a dignified manner
2. They kill each other off, or one group kills the other off, we step in, broker peace with them through some means, and continue the status quo... or

option 3. They run out of oil, are no longer economically/fiscally important, and we let them do the darfur...

I go for any of the above three, because imho trying to get someone to stop fighting over a slight variance in belief is like trying to get cops to work while near dunkin donuts.

Red
02-07-2008, 12:45 PM
American businesswoman jailed in Saudi - going to STARBUCKS!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece

Peaceful religion ftw.

I know the bible has some whacky shit in it too, but at least Western society has come to grips with the absurdity of some of the biblical tellings and doesn't actually stone people to death anymore unlike countries under Sharia law. 21st century is here, come join us.

They expect us to respect their beliefs, when they don't even respect the most basic of human rights. Hypocrisy much?

Arc
02-07-2008, 12:47 PM
American businesswoman jailed in Saudi - going to STARBUCKS!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece

Peaceful religion ftw.

B-b-b-b-but it is a religion of peace!

Backwards thinking is backwards. When can we erect a huge ass wall around the middle east? I like Mexicans.

LegalSmash
02-07-2008, 01:49 PM
It should be the religion of piece... as in "pieces of bodies littering the market after a suicide bombing"

Slavic
02-07-2008, 02:36 PM
Having fun turning this thread of discussions into a thread of insults?

LegalSmash
02-07-2008, 03:09 PM
Its not really an insult... its a statement of fact, not to be mean, but its stating the obvious.

This week, two mentally retarded women were used as human bombs... this isnt an insult, Slavic, its simply stating an uncontroverted fact, the "Peace" they so frequently tote like a Louis Vatton Bag seems to have gone the way of scriptwriters in TV.

Jose
02-11-2008, 01:42 AM
Your right, they are not blowing up Americans, they are blowing up Palestinians and Africans.

well i guess if they are blowing up palestinians and africans, they are not christian at all, they just want to give christians a bad name.fucking hypocrites:arghh:

Sorry but I can't respect the stoning to death of women, or other general death sentences imposed on women for being unfaithful. Or punishing an underage girl who was raped, who was the victim.

It's beyond harsh, it's barbaric.
agreed

Omega
02-11-2008, 01:52 AM
Sorry but I can't respect the stoning to death of women, or other general death sentences imposed on women for being unfaithful. Or punishing an underage girl who was raped, who was the victim.

It's beyond harsh, it's barbaric.

But does that in any way affect your daily life?

broncoty
02-11-2008, 07:40 AM
But does that in any way affect your daily life?

yes, because I believe in human rights

Italian Jew
02-11-2008, 10:12 AM
Some people have a different view of human rights...there is no exact term for it, but we like to think their is. That's how things go down in the world in other places. Can't do much about it. :v_SPIN:

Red
02-11-2008, 10:19 AM
But does that in any way affect your daily life?

Did Hitler gassing the jews affect most Americans at the time directly? No, but it was still fucking wrong.

LegalSmash
02-11-2008, 10:34 AM
^ quoted for MF T.


But does that in any way affect your daily life?

Absolutely, in every facet, in every interaction with my government.

The fundamentalist islamic mindset affects everyone in US or outside. The likelihood of random violent attack because they don't agree with your religious tenets (cough cough rhetoric) is more than enough to be considered "affecting" us. I notice it every time I ride a metro train and I hear the "please notify management re: suspicious persons, activity. I notice it when I get searched like an animal at the airport and cannot bring a goddamn bottle of water into the cabin because of some fundamentalists at Heathrow. I notice it when my goddaughter cannot watch a southpark issue that tastefully displays an image of Mohammad because it may get them scrutiny from the sheik of unspecifiedestan.

No, Omega, There is an effect. A great big radiating effect. This sort of rationale, reasoning (if it can be called that) that "it doesnt affect us" is fundamentally flawed.

Their actions abroad have led our nation to be less free people. That, my learned colleague is a vast, reverberating, irreparable effect, and one that cannot be abated until we rid the world of that ideal that drives a group of people to strap 3 Kilos of c4 to a mentally retarded woman and detonate her, against her cogent will (wait, she has none, therefore she has no ability to consent... human rights ftl) in a crowded plaza.

Red
02-11-2008, 10:54 AM
Lithuania getting raped by Nazis and Communists didn't affect us directly, we should have let the Nazis continue to slaughter your former countrymen.

I don't understand this stand-offishness of many Europeans, given what happened in the not to distant past.

Itch
02-11-2008, 10:59 AM
Did Hitler gassing the jews affect most Americans at the time directly? No, but it was still fucking wrong.


Lithuania getting raped by Nazis and Communists didn't affect us directly, we should have let them continue to slaughter your former countrymen.

I don't understand this stand-offishness of many Europeans, given what happened in the not to distant past.

Not sure who said this first but ...
"Evil flourishes where good men do nothing!"

LegalSmash
02-11-2008, 11:01 AM
Social welfare doesnt require them to remember that someone CAN screw them over...

This is the same sort of appeasement attitude that the british, and much of europe first took to the nazis.